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PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

Last post 06-04-2020, 15:35 by saby. 27 replies.
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  •  05-27-2020, 17:17 800103

    PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Hello all. I've used that "other" program in the past & last weekend installed PS23 Ultimate from a purchased disk. I'm reasonably familiar how editing programs work & have made a 69 min. video with 18 chapters of singing auditions. Added all my edits & transitions, made the "Legacy" menu with 6 sub-menu pages with 3 chapters (Default) each, linked all pages & added thumbnail pix. Verified from the simulator that all this worked as expected & exported to DVD as "Fit on disk. I had originally chosen HD/1920x1080/30p in the Control Panel/Project Settings/New Movie Project Format. Looking at the back of the disk, from the hub outward, there's only about 60% of the disk that has been burned. Before I exported it, it showed that I was over the limit by about 5.5 min's. @ 91% (quality?). Adding the File Sizes of each cut from Win/Explorer showed to be just under the 4.7G limit. I guess the overhead is putting me over the "Actual" File Size limit? Is there some notification of that when adding to the timeline I missed when loading all the cuts? What limit of compression does Pinnacle allow? I guess that's why it burned it the way it did... (720x480/29.97/NTSC/MPEG2/Lossy)? I expected to see all of the disk burned.

     

                Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated Ü

     

    System

    OS Name : Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Service Pack 1

    OS Type : 64 bit

    Processor : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4810MQ CPU @ 2.80GHz

    Core Per Package : 4

    Logical Per Core : 8

    Memory (RAM) : 32,673MB(1600)

    Windows Version : Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Service Pack 1

    Video Adapter : Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600

    Disk Drive C : LITEONIT LMT-256L9M-11 MM SCSI Disk Device(238GB,SCSI)

    Disk Drive E : Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB SCSI Disk Device(931GB,SCSI)

    Disk Drive F : Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB SCSI Disk Device(931GB,SCSI)

  •  05-28-2020, 3:19 800116 in reply to 800103

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    This is a regular question, although I'm surprised that the DVD only appears to be 60% full.

    Studio only uses a "one-Pass" encoding, so that i doesn't know what the actual size of a file is going to be until it actually creates it - it can only guess by the duration of the video. A more complex (and very much slower) 2 or 3 pass encoder would analyize the video (taking just as long as the actual encoding for each pass) and adjust the bitrate each time if does a pass before coming to a conclusion as to what is the best bit-rate. It may also vary it significantly during the file creation.

    The bitrate that you can get away with for a particular video file and achieve a decent quality varies with movement and the complexity of that movement. Nornally this question is asked when someone has made a slideshow with still pictures that may have (predictable) Pan and Zoom moves. When studio does it's encoding, it can compress the content much more that the duration of the file would suggest.

    Addtionally, Studio is VERY conservative with its estimates. It assumes there will be quite a bit of movement. Even then it leaves a bit of space to make sure you do get a sucessful burn.

    So if your audition videos are in general fairly static they will compress much more than sometiing with an average amount of movenemt

    BTW, You will not be getting HD burned to a disc if you are making a DVD disk which you want to play on a DVD player -the maximum resolution is the one Studio has selected. If you want HD, you need to make and AVCHD format (which will only play some a Blu-ray players).

    If you use manual settings you should be able to increase the bitrate and still make a disc that isn't full. The question is, will you actually notice a difference in quality? All you might be doing is adding information that is redundant with regard to quality of the disc.

    There are threads here where people have managed to increase the amount a disc looks full, but it''s a time-consuming process.

    There is no harm in mentioning the name of another program by the way.

  •  05-28-2020, 16:31 800143 in reply to 800116

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    jjn   Thank you very much for your comments/answers. About 15 years ago I started using Adobe Premier Pro. That was way before they went to "CS" & started charging/month. I tried their "Elements" & it was ok but I wasn't happy with their menus. The only one I ever used was about the same as the PS23 Legacy "Blank" only much less user friendly. It got to the point it wouldn't export to DVD & that was the last straw. It did however let me pack 1hr. & 40min. on a DVD @ 720x480 @ 16x9 using all the disk area. Not sure how their compression worked but both A/V quality was quite acceptable.

                I've read all this forums/groups back a few years just to get some history of previous versions problems. I'm discounting some of the problems on PS23 as new user/pilot error types. I wonder if some of the more catastrophic problems could be caused from the users system being Win10. My Win7 hasn't shown any of the problems/symptoms that I've seen described. Maybe my luck is changing.

                Win/Explorer shows the DVD I burned @ 2.69G = 57% of the disk capacity. What settings would I use to burn a DVD that was longer (time wise & naturally larger in file size) to utilize the rest of the disk space.? I keep thinking of T.V. series box sets that pack (4) 45 min. episodes on a single sided DVD at very good A/V quality burning all the DVD. That's a big difference from the disk I just burned. I'd settle for burning a DVD @ 16x9 @ good A/V quality.

                I can tell from your knowledgeable comments that when I said I was reasonably familiar how editing programs work, compared to you, everything I know about editing could be written on the back of a postage stamp. Again, I appreciate you taking the time with my questions. Ü
  •  05-28-2020, 16:56 800144 in reply to 800143

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    What is the file type and bitrate our your source files?  Is the source video or stills, or a mixture?  No video encoder is going to make something from nothing just to fill a disc.
  •  05-28-2020, 17:06 800147 in reply to 800144

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Agreed. But no encoder should predict a 90% full disc and ends up with only 60%.

     

  •  05-28-2020, 17:13 800150 in reply to 800147

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    We just had this same comment about a month ago.  Turned out the video he was exporting was filled with a bunch of stills.

    Are you suggesting that PS should use the knowledge of stills on the timeline, between the transitions, with nothing above or below them on other tracks, and calculate them as a single frame or two if interlaced?

  •  05-28-2020, 19:56 800153 in reply to 800150

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Re: acsscott & saby's comments... Not sure of the original bitrate but the files were a mixture of (7) live video segments = 31 min's & (12) segments of nothing but still pix w/transitions between each. Thanks guys, never dawned on me to provide that info. My mention of "Elements" giving me 1hr & 40 min videos in my last post was almost entirely made with video with very few stills. Maybe that makes better since now. I never thought about stills acting differently than video when compressed.

     

  •  05-28-2020, 20:18 800154 in reply to 800153

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Bitrate of source material was constant 9109kb/sec. All 18 cuts had been made into .mp4 files then imported into PS for a few additional transitions. So really there were only about 8-10 still pix in the timeline to be exported. The (12) segments of stills were made into (12) .mp4's & then added to the timeline. Hope that made since
  •  05-28-2020, 21:09 800155 in reply to 800154

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    The source is only 9.1mb/sec, which is fine for the resolution.  I'm sure PS is trying to export higher than that, I know PS21.5 does, and PS23 is calculating more space based on the selected export bit rate, but then doesn't export higher than the source.  That's my thought.
  •  05-28-2020, 22:19 800156 in reply to 800155

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    If it doesn't export higher than the source (which makes since), why would it calculate 40% overhead? That seems a lot but I'm just learning about PS. Sounds like with those guide lines I could never burn a disk longer the this one & would never burn over 60% of the available disk. The disk was burned as "fit to disk" so PS choose the final export bit rate (as variable). Everything I tried to set gave me the "too large" warning so I just chose the "fit to" option. Here is the burned media as played info...

    General
    Complete name                  : D:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
    Format                         : DVD Video
    Format profile                 : Menu
    File size                      : 12.0 KiB
    Overall bit rate mode          : Variable
    Video
    ID                             : 224 (0xE0)
    Format                         : MPEG Video
    Format version                 : Version 2
    Bit rate mode                  : Variable
    Width                          : 720 pixels
    Height                         : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio           : 4:3
    Frame rate                     : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
    Standard                       : NTSC
    Compression mode               : Lossy
    Audio
    Format                         : PCM
    Channel(s)                     : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                  : 48.0 kHz
    Text
    Format                         : RLE
    Format/Info                    : Run-length encoding
    Bit depth                      : 2 bits

    I keep wondering why everything I tried to set in exporting was too large & "fit to disk" left that much space available... why didn't it use more space at higher settings? Makes me think I could have done a better job with the settings or somewhere else along the way.

    I really appreciate your thoughts Ü

  •  05-28-2020, 22:40 800157 in reply to 800156

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    The custom export has issues since I believe PS19 if I remember correctly.  I always export an MTS file in PS23, place the exported file on the timeline of PS18, and make a disc.  PS18 is the last version that made a DVD or Blu-Ray properly in my opinion.
  •  05-28-2020, 23:11 800159 in reply to 800157

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Well that's tricky. I bet ya won't find that in any book. Do ya have both versions installed in the same computer?
  •  05-28-2020, 23:56 800160 in reply to 800159

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Absolutely. PS18, PS21.5, and PS23
  •  05-29-2020, 1:53 800163 in reply to 800157

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    acsscott:
    PS18 is the last version that made a DVD or Blu-Ray properly in my opinion.
    In your opinion. And yet I'be been making discs in later versions (mostly Blu-ray) from mp4 files in 19>23 with no issues at all.

    As always, simplistic, broadbrush statements like this need qualification.

  •  05-29-2020, 2:02 800164 in reply to 800150

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    acsscott:

    Are you suggesting that PS should use the knowledge of stills on the timeline, between the transitions, with nothing above or below them on other tracks, and calculate them as a single frame or two if interlaced?

    Not at all.

    My point : I don't know the rules that Studio follows to estimate the bitrate he must use. Whatever this rule, right, wrong or very conservative like jj said, why the final result is so different than the estimate ?
    It should not happen.
    Decide a rule and stick to it !

    Personnaly, I don't like playing a game where rules are modified without any notification.

  •  05-29-2020, 2:22 800165 in reply to 800156

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Timeline:

    If it doesn't export higher than the source (which makes since), why would it calculate 40% overhead? That seems a lot but I'm just learning about PS. Sounds like with those guide lines I could never burn a disk longer the this one & would never burn over 60% of the available disk. The disk was burned as "fit to disk" so PS choose the final export bit rate (as variable). Everything I tried to set gave me the "too large" warning so I just chose the "fit to" option. Here is the burned media as played info...

    General
    Complete name                  : D:\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.IFO
    Format                         : DVD Video
    Format profile                 : Menu
    File size                      : 12.0 KiB
    Overall bit rate mode          : Variable
    Video
    ID                             : 224 (0xE0)
    Format                         : MPEG Video
    Format version                 : Version 2
    Bit rate mode                  : Variable
    Width                          : 720 pixels
    Height                         : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio           : 4:3
    Frame rate                     : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
    Standard                       : NTSC
    Compression mode               : Lossy
    Audio
    Format                         : PCM
    Channel(s)                     : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                  : 48.0 kHz
    Text
    Format                         : RLE
    Format/Info                    : Run-length encoding
    Bit depth                      : 2 bits

    I keep wondering why everything I tried to set in exporting was too large & "fit to disk" left that much space available... why didn't it use more space at higher settings? Makes me think I could have done a better job with the settings or somewhere else along the way.

    I really appreciate your thoughts Ü

    Nothing there about the bitrate of the disc other than it is variable.

    1 - Studio never burns at the theoretical maximun bitrate for DVDs (9.5) for another reason other than being conservative. The last time I checked it aimed for about 7.5Mbs because burned discs are less reliable then pressed discs. There is a huge amount of error correction required to play back any optical disc because the system of burning and reading is prone to them. A pressed disc will not contain anywhere near as many errors, but a (poorly made) burned disc is likely to have many errors that will overwhelm the error correction when trying to play back video in real time.

    Numerous posts in the past of people not getting Studio made discs to play back properly, Sub optimal discs, burners or players could all be to blamed and as a general fix, lowereing the bitrate even further that Studios default would help a great deal. I generally made discs with a lot of content at 6.5Mbs, using bit-setting if I wanted to make a disc that played back on any player it was put in. So Pinnacle isn't just being consevative for calculation reasons, it also  never goes to the max anyway. And some times discs still skip or freeze.

    2 - You seem to have jumped from "Video with little movement" to Still pictures. mpeg-2 compression looks at a group of pictures that make up  a segent of video and if those frames are very similar it can compress then much more that something that is moving a great deal. Also mpeg-2 can detect PARTS of a frame the don't move and compress them more efficently. Take the example of a newsreader. Only his head moves, and most of that are the lips moving. So that shot can be compressed far more than something where a camera is moving in an unpredicatable manner and the whole picture changes. You said the source files were auditions. Was there a lot of frame size and compsion changes?

    3 - Worrying about a disc being full isn't the same as it being of lower quality. The DVD is going to be of lower quality then the HD source files because the resolution of DVD is not HD, it's SD. No amount of tweeking can change that. However, managing to jack up the bitrate on the disc might not result in a perceived quality improvement.

    How to get round the bitrate limit:

    Pretend to Studio you are going to put in a dual layer disc. Make a custom bitrate IMAGE (don't try to burn a disc) of your project at a bitrate nearer the maximum than you are getting with Fit to Disc. Look at the image folder in Explorer. Does it look like there is stil room for expansion? Then increase the bitrate some more until you have created an image that is a little less than 4.7Gb (ISTR you still need a bit of headroom). (this is basically what mulit-pass encoding does). Now use a program called ImgBurn to make a disc from that image. It should fill the single layer disc almost completely.

    Now test the Studio disc and the ImgBurn disc and compare the quality. Was it worth it?

  •  05-29-2020, 5:49 800172 in reply to 800165

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    jjn:
    Now use a program called ImgBurn to make a disc from that image. It should fill the single layer disc almost completely.

    Studio could not burn the image ?

  •  05-29-2020, 6:42 800174 in reply to 800172

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    saby:

    jjn:
    Now use a program called ImgBurn to make a disc from that image. It should fill the single layer disc almost completely.

    Studio could not burn the image ?

    Probably, I'm just trying to remember a workflow that I tried myself. Also ImgBurn will tell you if you have made the image too large, I don't recall if Studio was reported to do that. One of the issues it had was appearing to accept an image and then crashing.

  •  05-29-2020, 10:34 800180 in reply to 800165

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    "3 - Worrying about a disc being full isn't the same as it being of lower quality. The DVD is going to be of lower quality then the HD source files because the resolution of DVD is not HD, it's SD. No amount of tweeking can change that. However, managing to jack up the bitrate on the disc might not result in a perceived quality improvement."

     Agreed. You hit the nail on the head about "perceived quality improvement." PS burned the 16x9 disk @ good quality. I really don't care about the unused space other than if I want to burn a (2) hr./16x9 disk @ decent A/V quality... will it always have to be @ "Fit To Disk" or am I doing something wrong (that I need to correct) that created these results?

    Recapping... Post 800154 - <snip> All 18 cuts had been made into .mp4 files, then imported into PS for a few additional transitions. Burned DVD as "Fit To Disk" because all manual settings resulted in "too large" warning.

  •  05-29-2020, 11:08 800183 in reply to 800163

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    jjn:

    acsscott:
    PS18 is the last version that made a DVD or Blu-Ray properly in my opinion.
    In your opinion. And yet I'be been making discs in later versions (mostly Blu-ray) from mp4 files in 19>23 with no issues at all.

    As always, simplistic, broadbrush statements like this need qualification.

    I have documented it right here on this forum all the way down to each xml export definition file and the missing definitions for different export formats.  I also documented which setting values weren't being saved and loaded properly when you changed from one format to another.  The problems were replicated.  A lot of them have been fixed, but some combinations haven't as of PS21.5.  Purchased, but didn't install PS22, and haven't tested disc exporting in PS23.

  •  05-29-2020, 13:26 800190 in reply to 800180

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    No, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. Studio is basically looking at the timeline duration and takes no account of the content because it's a 1 pass encode. It's very conservative and if it ends up with too much free space on the disc thats because the mpeg-2 codec has found efficencies thet should not affect the quality

    At 2 hours you are looking at about 4Mbs; I'd say you would perceive a difference to burning a Dual layer disc and running at 8Mbps - unless the content had little movement,

    If you are trying to author something for distribution then you might want to spend time trying to fool Studio as I detailed before. Or you could use a D/L disc  but these have other issues.


  •  05-29-2020, 13:31 800191 in reply to 800183

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    acsscott:
    jjn:

    acsscott:
    PS18 is the last version that made a DVD or Blu-Ray properly in my opinion.
    In your opinion. And yet I'be been making discs in later versions (mostly Blu-ray) from mp4 files in 19>23 with no issues at all.

    As always, simplistic, broadbrush statements like this need qualification.

    I have documented it right here on this forum all the way down to each xml export definition file and the missing definitions for different export formats.  I also documented which setting values weren't being saved and loaded properly when you changed from one format to another.  The problems were replicated.  A lot of them have been fixed, but some combinations haven't as of PS21.5.  Purchased, but didn't install PS22, and haven't tested disc exporting in PS23.

    So you haven't actually made a disc in 22 and 23 but you state that they don't make discs properly? Then it's not an opinion, it's a guess :-)
  •  06-02-2020, 0:25 800248 in reply to 800191

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    I want to thank everyone for their comments & suggestions with my first project in PS. I ended up re-arranging it by combing two of the original cuts & adding a 40 min cut at the end. Had one nube mistake when trying to re-arrange the last (6th) menu page when deleting one cut & adding the new last cut. That was a mess. I'm surprised how well the A/V quality came out burning in the "fit to disk" mode @58%. Overall result was... 3.45G file size - MPEG2 Video 720x480 (16:9) - 110min's - 18 cuts in (6) menu pages.

    EDITED BY JJN

    this post contained Word tags - the forum doesn't behave well if you cut and paste from Word.

     

  •  06-04-2020, 13:11 800299 in reply to 800248

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Rats, I was using the above icon to the left of "HTML"... can ya copy/paste from Notepad?
  •  06-04-2020, 13:23 800301 in reply to 800299

    Re: PS23 Ulti-Export-A Few Questions

    Timeline:
    Rats, I was using the above icon to the left of "HTML"... can ya copy/paste from Notepad?
    Yes, I think the forum software is a lot older than the latest version of Word ;-)

    Notepad is fine. Or you can edit out the tage with the HTML button - that's how I cleaned the post up.

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