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Order of menu button layers

Last post 02-18-2021, 8:37 by gedall40. 19 replies.
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  •  02-12-2019, 2:42 779845

    Order of menu button layers

    This post is to inform others of a discovery I made today relating to populating a menu with multiple buttons where button sequence is crucial.

    Menu buttons and other items you add when editing a menu are listed on left side.  What you need to know is as you add layers, (I do it via copy paste of existing layers), each one is added ABOVE, not below the previous layer in the list.   Since throughout life we think of 1 being the top most of anything in a list, I reordered the list top to bottom

    Here is the gotcha - when I reordered the layers in the list from top to bottom to satisfy how I wanted them to sequence, the auto number # was bass-ackwards!  The auto number # starts, you guessed it, with the lowest item in the list.  The take away, if you use the auto number feature, then be aware that the sequence of the buttons are directly related to the order in the list.  Button 1 will be the lowest layer in the list and so on.

    Yann, my friend, if I have not made my point clear, I’ll explain possibly with a picture.  I am not requesting a change to PS, just trying to save others time.

     

  •  02-12-2019, 2:59 779848 in reply to 779845

    Re:Order of menu button layers

    I'll make some tests later to confirm your statement.


  •  02-12-2019, 4:19 779853 in reply to 779848

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    I can confirm Ira's finding - however with one major caveat...

    The buttons' layer order in the title/menu editor does affect the "button numbers" in Studio's "button cycle" (button 1 is at the bottom of the stack)

    However it does not determine the "navigation" between buttons (which buttons are seen as being "adjacent")when using the DVD player's arrow keys; this appears to be determined by their position on'screen relative to each other and by their size.
    Studio does seem to vageuly follow a left-to-right / top-to-bottom scheme when determining how the DVD player's highlight can be moved from one button to another using the arrow keys; however it can be "thrown" if the buttons are different sizes (for example using simple text layers as the buttons to make a list-style menu - if the text boxes are unequal lengths some extremely weird "navigation" can result (skipping over buttons (or even completely inaccessible unless clicked on directly in a media player), needing to move sideways to go down, etc.)! BTW such weird "navigation" can easily be fixed (for a DVD) using the third party tool PgcEdit.

    Regards,
    Richard

  •  02-12-2019, 10:28 779868 in reply to 779853

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    Richard,

    I admit NOT to creating the DVD before claiming it would screw up the order it would travel when navigating.  I agree with you about how the remote normally travels.  I’ll go a bit further.

    Here is how I discovered the illogical ordering in list:  I copy groups of buttons when I need another exact set, say on opposite side of the screen because it’s quick to get the job done and a position on menu grid readout and button size readout is not provided(?), Then I link each button, etc.  Then I decided to rearrange the order.  Then I see how they are numbered, etc.  I never needed as many buttons as with this project.  Hence, the discovery. Something I can easily live with.

    Since we are talking menus and menu buttons, I’d like a menu button that is ONLY the caption to click on.  I know Yann published how to create buttons.  I glanced at it.  Don’t think such a button has been considered.  I realize and would forgo a thumbnail for such a button.  It would be a simple list on the menu.  Reason - could fit more buttons and know what they represent.  I tried minimizing button size and increasing title size.  Did not work well.  So for the menu I am creating, just have unlinked chapters between major chapters that are linked.

    Thanks Richard and Yann,

     

     

  •  02-12-2019, 11:50 779878 in reply to 779868

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    In the past I have successfully created "list style" menus using only caption text as the button. But in my most recently created menus I use a small graphic "bullet" + a text caption as the button - and with care can get up to 14 or 15 "normal" buttons on the page.

    Notes:

    1. Due to the way that Studio renders the menus for widescreen DVD projects, (making both a full 16:9 and a letterboxed version of each menu page, the maximum number of menu buttons on a page is 18 (including any "previous", "next" or "root" buttons)

    2. If you have widely differing caption text lengths (that end up disturbing the "navigation" when using the DVD player's arrow keys) - a workaround is to include a rectangle shape layer as a "background" for the button, so that when an optional graphic bullet, the text caption and that background are grouped together and the "GroupLayer" is defined as a normal button, all of those normal buttons will be exactly the same size (determined by the dimensions of the background rectangle, not by the amount of text in the caption). The "background" rectangle can be transparent ("set "face" look to have 0% opacity and have no "edge" or shadow" looks); in this case, when the selected/active button highlighting is set to "alpha" only the (optional) graphic bullet and the caption text will get the highlight "glow". But in a media player operated by a mouse, the whole of the button including the "empty" part of the background area will be "clickable" and not just the visible parts of the graphic bullet or the text caption.
    Regards,
    Richard
  •  02-12-2019, 12:32 779882 in reply to 779878

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    culpanr:

    In the past I have successfully created "list style" menus using only caption text as the button. But in my most recently created menus I use a small graphic "bullet" + a text caption as the button - and with care can get up to 14 or 15 "normal" buttons on the page.

    Notes:

    1. Due to the way that Studio renders the menus for widescreen DVD projects, (making both a full 16:9 and a letterboxed version of each menu page, the maximum number of menu buttons on a page is 18 (including any "previous", "next" or "root" buttons)

    2. If you have widely differing caption text lengths (that end up disturbing the "navigation" when using the DVD player's arrow keys) - a workaround is to include a rectangle shape layer as a "background" for the button, so that when an optional graphic bullet, the text caption and that background are grouped together and the "GroupLayer" is defined as a normal button, all of those normal buttons will be exactly the same size (determined by the dimensions of the background rectangle, not by the amount of text in the caption). The "background" rectangle can be transparent ("set "face" look to have 0% opacity and have no "edge" or shadow" looks); in this case, when the selected/active button highlighting is set to "alpha" only the (optional) graphic bullet and the caption text will get the highlight "glow". But in a media player operated by a mouse, the whole of the button including the "empty" part of the background area will be "clickable" and not just the visible parts of the graphic bullet or the text caption.
    Regards,
    Richard

    Wow!  I have bookmarked this post for what you suggested plus more.  It's interesting how much you can deviate from the straight and narrow when the need exists.  By that I mean what we each learn - call it a workaround if you will, to accomplish a task.  And for you guys to take the time to share your knowledge, as I also do to the extent I know, is very kind of you to do so.  It's the love of "PS" that makes us/you share your knowledge.

    Tnx Much Richard (goes to Yann too, my other pen pal far away),

     

  •  02-13-2019, 2:35 779897 in reply to 779882

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    Completed my two disc videos with menus.  Tomorrow, I will share screen captures with a list I used to xcheck and copy/paste captions.  Everything worked out well.
  •  02-14-2019, 18:51 779995 in reply to 779897

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    Background:

    I have two videos, shot by a professional videographer during my grandson's Bar Mitzvah Morning Service (2 hrs) and the other of the evening party (1 hr).  Both videos were shot at HD 1280x720, 2 channel audio mp4 files.  The only changes/additions I made to each was to span the audio to be DD 5.1 and add the DVD menu with all linked and unlinked chapters.  The audio now sounds full making it feel we are reliving the event (of Nov 13, 2018).  Need I tell you how important it was to create the DVD to have chapters at logical points to jump around to rather than just playing the mp4 video files, hunting and pecking around.

    The attachment shows the party video menu that I just completed.  I overlayed a clip from a Word doc ONLY for you to see.  It is not p/o the DVD menu although not a bad idea but I rather show my grandson in the background in this one.  (Background images in the DVD were taken by the pro photographer at the party.. 

    You see the seven (7) [linked] chapters in the menu plus unlinked chapters in the WORD table clip.  Times were copied from the Marker table (CTRL-.).  Most of the time was spent to decide where to place markers followed by menu design.  Having the markers made it very easy to walk through the video when it was time to associate markers with button links and unlinked chapters .

    The Bar Mitzvah Service video, a bit over 2 hrs with its menu of 7 linked chapters with total 30 chapters in all, required 43% compression to fit on a std 4.7GB DVD+R.  I was quite surprised that the video quality was still very respectable, I guess based on the content matter.  It definitely did not warrant splitting the Service into two separate DVD's. 

    Not related - just a pet peeve of mine and slowly reading others who feel the same way - I could go back on my soapbox of wanting desperately the ability to LOCK MARKERS TO VIDEO CLIPS, but it would be shot down as it always is by those who have never encountered the need and claim why why why.... silly silly silly.  So, I originally started by placing both videos in the same project, thinking I could make a single video.  The take away but always remember is GO NO FURTHER other than to head to EXPORT to see the amount of compression PS calculates for the target DVD or BD disc.  Had I done that then the rest of what you are about to read would not have happened.   I added all the markers, made the nice menu, went to Export.  And PS said compression would be at 30%.  So, I cried a bit and then moved off the party video (1 hr), since it was the 2nd of the two on the timeline, into its own project.  Since the party video followed the Service video, ALL OF THE WORK to mark timeline for chapter points were L O S T wnhen I copied the video to its own project starting at 0.0 time of course.  I stopped crying and marked the video again in its own project.  Maybe someday Corel might see the light. However, this improvement might be difficult to accomplish and with so many other things for them to pull their hair out to resolve, I am resigned that I'll never see this new sensible option.  "have it both ways."



  •  02-14-2019, 19:41 779996 in reply to 779995

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    Here is the Bar Mitzvah Service video menu showing 7 chapters plus the Word doc Chapter list I spoke of in my last reply.

     


  •  02-15-2019, 2:00 780000 in reply to 779995

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    iraisok:
    Maybe someday Corel might see the light.

    Seeing the light is not always a good thing, Ira :  https://youtu.be/tlRLhcIUGsc?t=19

    Ahah !!!   Wink

  •  02-15-2019, 9:58 780030 in reply to 780000

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    saby:

    iraisok:
    Maybe someday Corel might see the light.

    Seeing the light is not always a good thing, Ira :  https://youtu.be/tlRLhcIUGsc?t=19

    Ahah !!!   Wink

    Had I not complained about the deficiency with markers, I’d get to hear your comment about the menus and my methods to my madness, the heart of my last two replies and closeout of the post ... unless others have questions.

  •  02-15-2019, 10:17 780033 in reply to 779995

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    iraisok:

    Not related - just a pet peeve of mine and slowly reading others who feel the same way - I could go back on my soapbox of wanting desperately the ability to LOCK MARKERS TO VIDEO CLIPS, but it would be shot down as it always is by those who have never encountered the need and claim why why why.... silly silly silly.  So, I originally started by placing both videos in the same project, thinking I could make a single video.  The take away but always remember is GO NO FURTHER other than to head to EXPORT to see the amount of compression PS calculates for the target DVD or BD disc.  Had I done that then the rest of what you are about to read would not have happened.   I added all the markers, made the nice menu, went to Export.  And PS said compression would be at 30%.  So, I cried a bit and then moved off the party video (1 hr), since it was the 2nd of the two on the timeline, into its own project.  Since the party video followed the Service video, ALL OF THE WORK to mark timeline for chapter points were L O S T wnhen I copied the video to its own project starting at 0.0 time of course.  I stopped crying and marked the video again in its own project.  Maybe someday Corel might see the light. However, this improvement might be difficult to accomplish and with so many other things for them to pull their hair out to resolve, I am resigned that I'll never see this new sensible option.  "have it both ways."

    Let me offer you a present.

    • open a new empty project
    • send a clip to timeline
    • set several markers to this clip
    • save the project and close it
    • search for this project in the library
    • send it to the timeline
    • dadaaaa !!! the markers are attached to the "clip"
    • you can of course still set some markers attached to the timeline as well

    You now have it both ways !!!
  •  02-15-2019, 11:46 780039 in reply to 780033

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    saby:
    iraisok:

    Not related - just a pet peeve of mine and slowly reading others who feel the same way - I could go back on my soapbox of wanting desperately the ability to LOCK MARKERS TO VIDEO CLIPS, but it would be shot down as it always is by those who have never encountered the need and claim why why why.... silly silly silly.  So, I originally started by placing both videos in the same project, thinking I could make a single video.  The take away but always remember is GO NO FURTHER other than to head to EXPORT to see the amount of compression PS calculates for the target DVD or BD disc.  Had I done that then the rest of what you are about to read would not have happened.   I added all the markers, made the nice menu, went to Export.  And PS said compression would be at 30%.  So, I cried a bit and then moved off the party video (1 hr), since it was the 2nd of the two on the timeline, into its own project.  Since the party video followed the Service video, ALL OF THE WORK to mark timeline for chapter points were L O S T wnhen I copied the video to its own project starting at 0.0 time of course.  I stopped crying and marked the video again in its own project.  Maybe someday Corel might see the light. However, this improvement might be difficult to accomplish and with so many other things for them to pull their hair out to resolve, I am resigned that I'll never see this new sensible option.  "have it both ways."

    Let me offer you a present.

    • open a new empty project
    • send a clip to timeline
    • set several markers to this clip
    • save the project and close it
    • search for this project in the library
    • send it to the timeline
    • dadaaaa !!! the markers are attached to the "clip"
    • you can of course still set some markers attached to the timeline as well

    You now have it both ways !!!

    Yann, you may not understand the issue.  I might not have been clear.  

    I first had BOTH videos in same project. Had I immediately visited Export DVD, I'd have learned compression amount down to 30%.  Instead I proceeded to waste time to decide and set where Markers in the SECOND video on the time line that starts at time 2 hrs.  I had to remove the 2nd video and place it in its own project.  As far as I understand, it’s Markers on the timeline with that video starting at the 2 hr time point, did not and could not travel with that 2nd video when it was placed in its own project starting at time ZERO.

    Yann, honestly, if your dadaaaaa comment is telling me there was/is a way to have those Markers be in the same relative to zero time in the new project,  please dumb it down for me.  I will not ever be embarrassed.  

    Really, 

  •  02-15-2019, 12:00 780041 in reply to 780039

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    My trick is working if markers are set to each videos separately.

    Set markers to video #1, save it as a project #1.

    Set markers to video # 2, save it as a project #2.

    Now insert these projects into project #3 and you can play with project #1 and #2 (move them, trim them, ...) as you like, keeping their attached markers intact + add markers attached to timeline of project #3 as well.

  •  02-15-2019, 12:43 780042 in reply to 780041

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    saby:

    My trick is working if markers are set to each videos separately.

    Set markers to video #1, save it as a project #1.

    Set markers to video # 2, save it as a project #2.

    Now insert these projects into project #3 and you can play with project #1 and #2 (move them, trim them, ...) as you like, keeping their attached markers intact + add markers attached to timeline of project #3 as well.

    Wow! I will try it.  I wish I knew that trick years ago ... for how I use Markers. I am so happy you explained dadaaaaaaa.  

    I will report back later today.

    Thanks Much,

  •  02-15-2019, 13:47 780045 in reply to 780042

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    This trick was already possible using the old effects editor. Do not actually apply any effect to a clip but simply use the markers available in the effects editor. Back to timeline, markers are attached to the clip. No need to apply the trick individualy like with the projets trick. You can apply it on each clip on the same timeline, markers are attached individualy to each clip.

    But with introduction of new effects editor in PS22 this trick is no longer possible.

     

  •  02-15-2019, 22:48 780063 in reply to 780045

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    saby:

    This trick was already possible using the old effects editor. Do not actually apply any effect to a clip but simply use the markers available in the effects editor. Back to timeline, markers are attached to the clip. No need to apply the trick individualy like with the projets trick. You can apply it on each clip on the same timeline, markers are attached individualy to each clip.

    But with introduction of new effects editor in PS22 this trick is no longer possible.

     

    Assuming I understood you.

    1. The first trick did not work for me.  While I'd like to master it for what it does it is not representative of the condition I was dealing with.  In my case the 2nd video was on timeline.  I had already placed 30 markers in that 1 hr video.  I would have LOVED for the markers to appear in their relative location when I, effectively, places that 2nd video in its own project that started at00:00:00.00 on the timeline, of course.  I'll retry Trick #1. If fail, I'll detail what I did and you will tell me what I did NOT.

    2. Your 2nd trick... do you mean to include PS21 also as it has the new effect GUI?  If so, that would be why when I followed those steps (easily) then when I moved a clip on the timeline, the marks did not follow.  I had never tried it when I had PS versions prior to 21.

    Your thoughts and thanks,

  •  02-16-2019, 3:05 780071 in reply to 780063

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    iraisok:

    1. The first trick did not work for me.  While I'd like to master it for what it does it is not representative of the condition I was dealing with. 

    Communication between human beings can be a tough tasks sometimes.   Big Smile    The first trick could not be applied to your situation because it was too late.

    iraisok:

    2. Your 2nd trick... do you mean to include PS21 also as it has the new effect GUI? 

    Yes, I forgot that new effects editor was already present in PS21. Sorry about that.

    iraisok:

    If so, that would be why when I followed those steps (easily) then when I moved a clip on the timeline, the marks did not follow.  

    I don't understand how you could follow the steps. There are no markers available in PS21 effects editor. I'm talking about those markers in Effects editor of PS20 and prior :


  •  02-16-2019, 3:15 780072 in reply to 780071

    Re: Re:Order of menu button layers

    When back to TL, the markers are attached to the clip :

  •  02-18-2021, 8:37 811891 in reply to 779845

    Re: Order of menu button layers

    iraisok:

    This post is to inform others of a discovery I made today relating to populating a menu with multiple buttons where button sequence is crucial.

    Menu buttons and other items you add when editing a menu are listed on left side.  What you need to know is as you add layers, (I do it via copy paste of existing layers), each one is added ABOVE, not below the previous layer in the list.   Since throughout life we think of 1 being the top most of anything in a list, I reordered the list top to bottom

    Here is the gotcha - when I reordered the layers in the list from top to bottom to satisfy how I wanted them to sequence, the auto number # was bass-ackwards!  The auto number # starts, you guessed it, with the lowest item in the list.  The take away, if you use the auto number feature, then be aware that the sequence of the buttons are directly related to the order in the list.  Button 1 will be the lowest layer in the list and so on.

    Yann, my friend, if I have not made my point clear, I’ll explain possibly with a picture.  I am not requesting a change to PS, just trying to save others time.

     

     

    I am very new to Studio 24 but I think I have found the same effect as listed in this old quote above.  I have a simple Menu, with a short Intro Video and three chapters. I too used the copy and paste from the first typed chapter title to get the two new boxes, positioned each of them below the original and re-typed the contents of each box.  When I dragged the first Chapter title to the scrubber on the timeline, it gave the icon C1.  When I dragged the second chapter title to the next position on the timeline, it became C1 and the original chapter 1 changed automatically to C2.  When I dragged the third chapter title to the timeline, it now became C1, the previous one on the time line became C2 and the first one became C3.

    As I was not expecting the first chapter after the Intro Video to be C3, I spent a couple of days trying to correct this, but always failed (sometimes crashing PS 24 in the process).  In the end I left it in reverse order, burned the BR disc - and low and behold when I played it the chapters were in the order I wanted and it worked as I wanted.  So I gave up worrying about what it looked like on the timeline and in the Menu window, since it works.  In view of the above post which I have found this morning, I think I may need to be more careful when copying and editing an original chapter title.  Maybe not copy, but just insert a new box and type the next chapter title into it.

    I was pleased that the Intro Video technique works better than in PS15 without the need for a work-around.  In the process of doing it in PS24 somehow my Intro Video developed a blank chapter icon at the very left hand end, the very start of the whole disc.  At first I ignored it, but although nothing appeared on the Menu, the disc played very well but omitting completely the Intro Video and going straight to the Menu!  Deleting of the blank icon solved that for me. 

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