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Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

Last post 12-06-2018, 21:17 by acsscott. 61 replies.
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  •  12-17-2017, 7:46 754849

    Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Since installing Studio 20 and the subsequent patches I have encountered significant lag times when editing longer (more than about 15 minutes)/more complex projects making Studio very slow and difficult to use.  Corel's Pinnacle Tech Support was investigating this issue for some time before Studio 21 was released.  It came as no surprise that Studio 21.1 has the same problem and early indications are that 21.2 is a bit slower (appears the cause may be a change to the rendering process that I am still trying to understand).  In some cases Studio works fine (no lag time or jerky video) when:

    • full clips such as a 1 hour .mpg file or 1.5 hour .mp4 file (no scenes detected) are on the timeline (can be cut and edited a few times without problems); or

    • up to 15 minutes of detected scenes or a small number of clips such as .m2ts are on the timeline

    However, with more than 15 minutes of detected scenes or .m2ts files added to the timeline the lag time occurs after each edit/action and is incremental as more scenes/clips are added.  With 80 minutes of scenes/files on the timeline the lag is 15 to 25 seconds per edit/action on the timeline and in the Effects Editor.  With 2 hours of detected scenes/files on the timeline the lag time after each edit/action is 30 to 70 seconds. For example, with 80 minutes of detected scenes on the timeline trim a clip then wait 15 to 25 seconds for brown render indicator to appear, the timeline and preview to ‘catch up’ and studio to become ‘ready’ before the clip can be played back or another edit/action performed. Similar lag time issues in the Effects Editor when making adjustments with the sliders.  During the lag time the play head jumps to random positions on the timeline.

     

    Short projects (less than 15 minutes) and The Sky Is The Limit sample project work fine…smooth play, scroll and no lags if edited.

     

    The only benchmark I have is Studio 15 and 16 both of which easily handled 5 hours or more detected scenes on the timeline without any lags or other problems.

     

    Tech Support is unable to explain the lag and has confirmed that the spec of the P/C running Studio is more than adequate.  They have requested audits on the P/C multiple times, Studio database reset multiple times, Studio removed and re-installed multiple times.  I don’t have access to another Win 7, 64 Bit P/C on which to install Studio and see if it has the same issues.  So, at this stage I’m not considering replacing the P/C and for other reasons cannot update to Win10.  As far as I know Tech Support’s investigation is on-going (although ticket closed) with no resolutions and no details of their findings to date.  The cause appears to relate to the number of scenes/clips on the timeline rather than the type or size of the source files.

     

    I’m wondering if anyone else might have encountered similar issues with S20 and/or S21 and have any suggestions for reducing the lag time.  I have not been able to locate other Forum topics that specifically address this issue which makes me think it might be a hardware problem or perhaps other Studio users simply don’t edit larger projects….. or my expectations re Studio performance are just too high.

     

    Test Project: 80 minutes of .m2ts source files on the timeline (approx. 640 X .m2ts files imported from Sony CX900 Camcorder).  The lag time is 15 to 25 seconds.  I’ve also created new projects of similar length using different source files and types and encountered the same issues (after fully rendered which takes more than 85 minutes for the .m2ts files).

     

    Studio Common Settings: Optimisation = 89;  H/Acceleration = NONE;  Quality = Balanced; Render While Play = ON (various adjustments and combinations make no difference - Intel and CUDA H/Acceleration are both much slower)

     

    P/C Specs: Windows 7, 64 Bit; Intel i7 2.95Ghz; 16Gb RAM; Nvidia GEForce GTX650 Graphics V388.59 (two monitors connected).  Windows Updates installed and Drivers up to date.  Studio is installed on the system drive (1Tb SSD) and the Source and Render files are on a separate internal 4Tb HDD with 1.2 Tb free space (moving the Render file location to the SSD makes no difference).  Removing the second monitor (digital, connected to Digital Port 1 of the graphics card) makes no difference.  The larger main monitor is analogue and connected to Analogue Port 2.

     

    Any thoughts or suggestions to overcome or reduce the lag would be much appreciated.

  •  12-17-2017, 14:40 754875 in reply to 754849

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I wish I had an answer for you. Suggestion, keep taskmanager open and monitor your RAM usage. Take note when things start to bog down. How much RAM is being used, and if other processes are kicking too. Also, how far are you into the project (time wise).

    The last long form video I did was a 2+ hour wedding DVD on PS19 and I experienced no problems.  Most of my projects are short, but sometimes, very very complex. I'll do incremental saves, and when I need a break, I give the computer one too. I'll shut it down. It only takes a few seconds for me to get back to working thanks to having a SSD.

  •  12-17-2017, 17:25 754876 in reply to 754875

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Are you using any old 32 bit filters or effects on your project?  I've had that cause this issue.  You can open task manager and see if Com Surrogate processes are using a lot of CPU.  The com surrogate is used for a 64 bit app to call a 32 bit function/dll.  It makes 64 bit apps come to a halt.  Watch the task manager and see.  64 bit filters and effects will use high BGrenderer and NGStudio CPU usage.  32 bit filters use multiple com surrogates with one of them at a time being high CPU usage.  It's passing/paging everything to and from them for compatibility.
  •  12-18-2017, 7:21 754896 in reply to 754849

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I have experienced the same problem with video files having large key-frames, but not such long lag times.

    Unfortunately the only way I can check the key-frame, is to load the video into AVC Video Remaker, and check clippings, where it always is done between key-frames, and have seen large key-frames in some DIVX videos.

    I have 2 ways, to get around this.
    1: Remaking the video to a h264 file, which is default to Studio.
    2: Increase the Optimization Threshold to 90 or higher.

    PS: I am running the 32-bit version of Studio instead of the 64-bit, as I found it more tolerant to various codecs.

  •  12-18-2017, 9:49 754907 in reply to 754896

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Firstly, thanks for your assistance.

    Tony, the RAM usage is 19% when idle.  When Studio opens it increases to 22-23%.  When editing does not exceed 24% - 25%.  I thought this may be an issue so pushed it beyond 30% by opening other apps...they run OK.

    I'm currently around 20 minutes into a project as follows:

    - Started with about 600 .m2ts files totalling 87 minutes

    - Currently 73 minutes on the timeline, includes 4 or 5 JPEGs

    - An OUT fade on each clip

    - Edits include fades, trims, deletes, detach and switch audio between scenes, a couple of effects and pan & zooms

    - No titles, transitions or background audio/music at this stage 

    The lag times at present are the same as when I started the project.

    A bit more detail:

    - After the 15 second lag and the brown marker turns green BGRender continues to run at between 50% and 92% CPU usage for about 90 to 120 seconds.  This does not appear to impact editing after the 15 second lag (except probably 'sticky' video when played/scrolled, I think because the brown marker takes time to render and turn green). 

    - After trimming a scene/clip and then waiting for Studio to become 'ready', after the 15 seconds or so lag, if another edit is performed immediately the lag time is 30-37 seconds.  BGRender still only runs on at high CPU for the 90 to 120 seconds.

    - Probably coincidence but double the amount of source data on the timeline and the lag time also doubles, within a second or two. 

    Yes, I also frequently do incremental saves, close & re-open Studio and a periodic re-boot....a lesson learned long ago.

    acsscott, I have 20.6U and 21.2U installed along with the 2 content packs.  Also Smartsound, Scorefitter 3, NewBlue packs and Prodad-Mercalli 64bit plug-ins.  None of the plug-ins have been used in the current project.  I'm not aware of any 32 bit filters running nor can I see any other programs kicking in.

    I've run Studio in Safe Mode and still there is the lag.

    dllhost.exe (COM Surrogate) shows in Task Manager and is static at 1554K and no CPU usage.

    BGRender runs between 50% and 92% after an edit and continues for up to 2 minutes then CPU Usage in Task Manager drops back to 0% - 2%.  The high CPU usage by BGRender does not appear to stop Studio becoming 'ready' after the lag time, however:

    - play or scroll on the timeline appears a bit 'sticky' or 'jerky'.

    - at the time Studio becomes 'ready' after the lag time a brown render marker is displayed.  It does not appear to impact play or edit but does take some time to render and turn green.  This rendering appears to start much later in 21.2 than it did in 20.6 and 21.1 (possibly due to a change in the Patch as rendering seems a bit erratic in 21.2)

    Studio seems to be the only app using BGRender, at least when I'm using Studio.

    Jorgensen, I hadn't considered key-frames.  The .m2ts files were imported from a Sony CX900 Camcorder so I don't think key-frames would be an issues and I haven't added any to the project at this stage.

    I am running Optimisation at 89 and have tried many other settings including 0, 50, 85, 90, 95, 100. Makes no difference.

    A good point re 32 bit.  I might try uninatalling and see if I can force the install to 32bit version.

    Next step might be to have a techo look at the P/C as it now appears more likely to be a hardware issue as no one else appears to experience this issue.  I retrieved the P/C from the techo to install the 21.2 Patch so will return it to him for further investigation....will now be after the holiday.

    Thanks again for your assistance.  I'll let you know how things pan out.

    I wish you all a Merry Xmas. 

     

  •  12-21-2017, 19:01 755176 in reply to 754907

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I haven't forgotten this thread... just super busy this time of the year all the way through until at least the 2nd week of next year....
  •  12-28-2017, 22:31 755469 in reply to 754907

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Ok... working on a project that is about 6 minutes but contains hundreds of videos and photos with cropping and color correction along with Montage themes. I have TaskManager open to Performance and MSI Afterburner to monitor my GPU. My computer hardware is listed at the bottom. Not any where near as long as your project. But, I have been editing for 4 hours straight.

    Optimization set to 87, Preview Balanced, Render while play set to Automatic. Timeline 25P 1920x1080. I do incremental saves as I edit. Using 21.2 64bit PS.

    I edit as fast as I can click or use the keyboard. Not one single crash. RAM was as high as 1.3GB. On my break, I exit the program and restart it to continue. RAM stays around 780MB.BG Renderer around 71MB. CPU usage would go up and down on all 16 logical cores. GPU too.

    As for "performance" feel, it's about the same for me as Vegas Pro 14, 15 and Corel VideoStudio Pro X10.5. 

  •  12-29-2017, 2:06 755473 in reply to 755469

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Hi Tony

    On a 6 minute project I cannot fault PS21.2 and the new GUI is great.  The lag starts after about 15 minutes of media is on the timeline (and appears somehow to relate to the number of files/scenes - two or three 15 minute long intact files on the timeline don't appear to have the problem).  The lag begins at 1 to 2 seconds and is incremental from that point to around 15 seconds or more with 60 minutes (video .mpg [scenes detected] or .m2ts clips) on the timeline.  The lag time is greater if many fades/transitions or effects have been added.  PS21.2 very rarely crashes (which is great - if 'not responding' then give it a little time and it will recover), but after editing for a while, say on a 60 minute 'video' project, the Memory for NGStudio reaches 650 - 750 (about 27-28% total physical memory) and intermittent things start to happen in Studio (indicating time to re-start), including:

    - sometimes, select a clip and all clips to the right on all tracks are also selected (clear it and select a single clip all to the right again selected)

    - sometimes, not all components in the library view collapse when right click and select Expand/Collapse option   

    - sometimes, selecting a Marker from the list is not possible, however the 'arrows' continue to work in the Markers window

    A re-start usually fixes these problems or sometimes a re-boot is necessary.  Not big issues but annoying and easily fixed when it starts to happen.

    After reading your post I ran a simple test using only Photos (no video files added to the timeline).  I hadn't tried this before, the results are:

    - add 615 photos at 2 seconds each = total 20 minutes on timeline (allow to render) - increase one photo to 5 seconds and perform Pan & Zoom edit - lag time 4-5 secs (Task Manager 891K/30%), then 

    - add another 615 photos (same so no render) at 2 seconds each = total 41 minutes on timeline - increase one photo to 5 seconds and perform Pan & Zoom edit - lag time 8-9 secs (Task Manager 1,067K/32%), then  

    - add same 615 photos = total 62 minutes on timeline - increase one to 5 seconds and perform Pan & Zoom edit - lag time 11-12 secs (Task Manager 1,327K/34%), then   

    - add same 615 photos = total 82 minutes on timeline - increase one to 5 seconds and perform Pan & Zoom edit - lag time 15-16 secs (Task Manager 1,854K/38%)    

    The GUI (eg open Pan & Zoom) becomes a bit slower to respond at each step above.

    I still cannot determine if the incremental lag and slowness is a Studio or a hardware issue.  If no one else can replicate these issues or has similar problems then I guess it points to a problem hardware component.  However, all appear to be working correctly, other apps work fine, drivers updated including Nvidia graphics, K-Lite Mega Codes updated, Windows updated and Windows performance assessment indicates 7.0.

    It would be interesting to know what happens if you were to copy the 6 minutes in your project and paste it say 10 or 11 times or more to the timeline (total 66 minutes or more) and see if there is a lag when editing or slowness in the Studio interface.

    Thanks for your assistance.

  •  12-29-2017, 9:17 755492 in reply to 755473

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I am in the middle of a project, but will try doing something similar.

    As a side note, I do not like the "new" Pan and Zoom feature. I just can not get it to work the way I want. I'll have to spend more time with it, but I personally liked the "old" one better. Now, I use NewBlue FX Video Essentials VII Auto Pan with no trouble.

    It seems that everything you are doing is related to the P&Z feature. 

    You mention video memory going how high? 650-750 "what"? GB or MB?

    How much RAM do you have? What if you uninstalled K-Lite?

    Once I finish the project, I will copy and paste it to see how it performs. 

  •  12-29-2017, 23:29 755568 in reply to 755492

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I was just using P&Z for testing purposes.  The lag occurs for any edits/actions...add Fade or Transition, Trim Clip, Add Effect, etc.  Also when making adjustments in the Effects Editor.

    I too have had problems with the new P&Z function.  When selecting the animation option a different selection from the drop-down list needs to be made first or move the GREEN box otherwise you cannot access the RED box.  Also, I haven't been able to get the key-frames to work properly.

    Sorry, 650-750 refers to Memory (Private Working Set) in Task Manager - 650,000K to 750,000K.

    RAM installed is 16GB 

    I'm not sure if uninstalling K-Lite will impact other apps.  I'll try later and advise the outcome.

    Thanks 

  •  01-02-2018, 16:55 755928 in reply to 755568

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Ok...finished my last project which is about 5 1/2 minutes with lots of photos, videos, color corrections and Montage themes.

    I copied and pasted it 10x on the timeline. 

    I can open the Effects Editor and use it with no problem. I used NBFX VII Auto Pan to do this to a few photos.

    Back on the timeline, I do not see a render bar when I do this. Optimization is set to 87 and when working on the original project, I would see it even if adding a transition.

    After going back to the timeline, there is at LEAST a 15 second delay when I hit the space bar to play or click on the Play button in the Timeline Viewer. 

    RAM usage is around 1.2GB and has settled to 909MB right now. I can tell when I can actually play the timeline. I have Audio Scrub turned on. I scrub back and forth until I hear the audio, and then things play back. I tried this near the end of the timeline.

    So yes, for me and my computer, there is a problem with responsiveness for me too.  Even adding a 1 sec dissolve causes the program to not respond. Where ever I place the playhead and hit play, it jumps to another location.

  •  01-03-2018, 6:40 755990 in reply to 755928

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Thanks Tony, I was beginning to think it was just me, but now more certainty that it is probably a Studio rather than a hardware problem.  You have explained the lag and play-head jumping exactly as it happens for me with about 60 minutes of clips, etc on the Timeline....a bit better than I described it.  Just a couple of points.....

    1. If you now copy and paste your project to double the content on the Timeline it will roughly double the lag time.  I cannot figure out what Studio might be trying to do, that appears to involve all the content, after an action such as a fade or trim on a single clip.  The lag occurs regardless of any content moving position on the Timeline and is consistent regardless of working at the start or end of the Timeline.  During the lag time CPU usage is usually low in Task Manager unless there is rendering happening on any of the Tracks but, this does not appear to relate to the lag issue except that it delays the rendering of the change being made....the brown indicator just sits there and waits its turn.  

    2. I tried the NBFX VII Auto Pan and yes it appears to process quickly but the lag is after returning to the Timeline and before the brown render indicator appears.

    3. A little different scenario is if the effect has adjustment options, such as Studio PIP.  After double-clicking the clip to enter the Editor and selecting Studio PIP, the lag time occurs before the PIP is overlaid in the pre-view window and again on each adjustment.  Eg: move the PIP control left, wait 15 seconds or more for the pre-view window to update (ie move the object left), tweak the control a bit more wait for 15+ seconds to pre-view, etc.

    Tech Support asked that I try to replicate this issue on another P/C which I don't have access to so if OK with you I will update them that the issue has been replicated on another P/C.

    I didn't get around to trying to force a 32Bit installation to see if it has the same issue.  I'll also advise Tech Support of this.

    Thanks again for you assistance

  •  01-03-2018, 8:46 755997 in reply to 755990

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I also was watching BG Renderer and nothing appeared out of the ordinary. I can see if the bottleneck was the amount of RAM being used and then "virtual RAM" (disk access) was being used, but it was not that. I am curious though. My 10x timeline didn't use much more RAM than when I was adding fx and transitions than it did when it was a little over 5 minutes. Is there a "cap" on the amount of RAM that is being used? You would think that the larger the project, the more system RAM would be used, but it is not.

    I am now wondering if anyone editing long projects ever exceed 2GB of RAM usage....

    No problem adding me to the "story". 

  •  01-03-2018, 20:06 756060 in reply to 755990

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I have also, for several Studio versions, experienced this serious lag problem (at least since Studio 18).  The lag is now more significant since I am editing with a higher proportion of 4K.  

    I have developed a work-around for projects exceeding about half an hour in finished length.  I will export segments of, say 15 minutes each, after initial cuts are done, and re-import them on to a new project.  Editing with the new project which comprises partially edited raw footage means I am working with fewer clips - eg a 1 hour video may comprise 4 x 15 minute 'pre-rendered' clips, instead of several hundred raw footage clips.  This is a cumbersome and time consuming procedure, but much faster than trying to complete the long videos using raw footage all the way.

    I have looked at what is happening to my RAM usage during editing (I have 32Gb RAM).  When initially loaded, the RAM usage shows eg, Active 5Gb, Standby 3Gb, Free 25Gb.  As editing proceeds, the 'Free' gradually declines whilst the 'Standby' increases.  After perhaps 20 minutes or half hour of heavy editing activity, 'Free' will have declined to close to zero, and 'Standby' will have increased to about 28Gb.  Editing is reasonably quick with high levels of 'Free' RAM.  It gets progressively slower as Studio shifts RAM from 'Free' to 'Standby'.  Studio is very slow at this point, and sometimes crashes.  The work-around is to close Studio and restart it. This frees the RAM that studio has locked away in 'Standby', and I can resume editing at a reasonable pace.

    Any thoughts? 

    My system is:

    CPU i7-3770k 

    RAM 32Gb 1600c10

    GPU: Gigabyte GTX 660

    HDD: WD Black 4Tb + WD Black 2Tb + 128Gb SSD

    Win 10 Pro

    Pinnacle Studio 20 

  •  01-05-2018, 15:07 756163 in reply to 756060

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Tks Raybown, it's interesting that 4K is increasing the lag time, so far for me the video and picture types tested all seemed to have similar lag times.  Until now the main impact on the lag time appeared to be the number and length of the clips/scenes.

    I have 16Gb RAM installed.

    Prior to opening Studio 21.2.1.176:

    In Use = 3.8Gb,  Standby = 11.3Gb,  Free = 1.2Gb

    After opening Studio with 80 minutes (part 1 of 2 parts) of source media, mainly .m2ts clips, on the Timeline:

    In Use = 4.6Gb,  Standby = 11.2Gb,  Free = 0.5Gb

    After editing for an hour or so:

    In Use = 4.9Gb,  Standby = 11.3Gb,  Free = 0.15Gb

    After editing for another hour without restarting Studio:

    In Use = 4.9Gb,  Standby = 11.0Gb,  Free = 0.35Gb 

    Throughout the two hours of editing tonight the lag time was consistent at about 10 to 12 seconds.  The current project contains many much longer clips which reduces the lag time.  Re-starting Studio makes no difference.

    There does not appear (at least to me) to be anything out of the ordinary in Memory usage when Studio is running (except if using many pictures which chews up the Memory and does not appear to release it....Studio eventually grinds to a halt).  Studio just seems to freeze (lag) after each edit/action until the brown render bar is displayed on the timeline.  

    For long projects I use a similar work-around strategy of splitting them into parts and then merging them later, when shorter due to editing, but it can be complicated and there are a number of draw-backs (especially moving clips between the temporary projects) and it is still extremely slow waiting for the lags after each edit/action and the rendering to complete.  The work-around is probably a bit off-topic from the original thread so a new thread would probably be appropriate if you want to discuss the work-around further.  

    I've tried following up with Tech Support but have received no feed-back re their findings after remotely accessing my P/C and requesting audits on a number of occasions.  As far as I am aware they have closed the Ticket that was raised for PS20.  I raised another ticket for the same issue in PS21 and was told the original ticket was sufficient.

    For me the lag is generally about 15+ seconds per edit/action per hour of clips/detected scenes on the Timeline.  Less clips in the hour lowers the lag time.  It appears the lag is much less (sometimes none) when editing audio components.  Put a 1 hour clip on the timeline (no scenes detected) split it a few times and add fades to the cuts and there is no lag!  Cut it many times to replicate scene detection and the incremental lag becomes an issue.

    To be honest it makes no sense to me, so unfortunately got no thoughts at this stage.

  •  01-20-2018, 22:53 758372 in reply to 756163

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Hi Traveller. I guess you didn't find my thread created back in 2016, at least not when you first started this thread. Here's the link: http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/thread/727766.aspx

    I haven't been using Studio (or anything else) regularly these last few years, but I have volunteered to shoot and edit a stage show for a non profit that they put on every November. I just completed another one and had to keep setting back the delivery date due to this issue. I finally delivered standard def DVD's and have to begin authoring a Blu-ray version this week. 

    Judging by the replies here and in my thread it doesn't appear Corel is interested in fixing this issue. It may be that people who edit long form projects simply use more professional software?

    In any case, I will plan on looking into Premiere and Vegas b4 next November. It's too bad. I was an original Studio beta tester, before it was ever first marketed. I used to use Premier, back before they reset the version numbers. Studio is miles beyond that old version at this point. I really want it to work.

  •  01-21-2018, 7:40 758383 in reply to 758372

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Hi Leebosay, this is my findings so far.

    I think the issue you reported in 2016 is slightly different but may be related to this thread. From my latest communication with Corel I believe they are still looking into the lag problem. They now appear to understand it is not a hardware problem specific to my P/C which it appeared may be the case in the first place. From the testing I have done to try and find a cause it appears there is a combination of at least 3 separate problems (they could all be related to a single cause) that make editing of projects over about 15 minutes in length become extremely slow (with separate scenes or clips, not a single source file). This detail is based on Studio Ultimate build 21.2.1.176 and 16Gb RAM and was also an issue in S20.6 & S21.1 (file types tested .mpg, .m2ts, .mp4, and jpeg). Apologies if this is a bit repetitive, I believe at least some of the issues referred to below have already been raised with Corel:

    1. Lag Time – with say about 60-75 minutes of source scenes/clips on the timeline the lag is about 15 to 25 seconds or more after most edits/actions performed in Studio. The lag is incremental as more source scenes or clips are placed on or added to the timeline – the lag is approximately 15 seconds per edit/action per hour of source clips/scenes on the timeline eg: 15 seconds or more lag with 1 hour (say 350 clips) on the timeline, 30 seconds or more lag with 2 hours (say 700 clips) on the timeline, etc. The lag time is the same if editing at the start or the end of a project and remains constant regardless of a Studio re-start or P/C re-boot.

    Symptoms include: The lag appears to occur between pressing the enter key for an edit/action and the rendering (brown indicator) appearing; CPU and Memory usage is low during the lag period (unless background rendering is in progress somewhere else on the timeline); the scroll bar jumps to random positions on the timeline; sometimes if play is pressed too soon the pre-view begins to play but cannot be controlled by the control buttons….play stops when Studio becomes ready again; the scroll bar appears to become 'detached' from the timeline/pre-view window until Studio is ready (scroll bar can be freely dragged along the timeline without the pre-view window updating or timeline scrolling). However, the lag also occurs even if it appears no rendering is required (and no change displayed for Background Renderer in Task Manager).

    Workaround: I split larger projects into smaller projects to reduce the lag time and merge them later after editing is near completion. Fine Tuning on the merged project will be very slow if more than about 40 minutes in length. The problem of course is re-locating clips between the projects if required before the final merge, so best to do this in a single project before the split (very slow and fiddly due to the lag or try and populate each separate project directly from the Library (a bit more complex and risk of duplication) or set up Project Bins for each of the separate projects. Make sure the track setup is the same in all the projects otherwise the copy/paste function may place the data on the wrong tracks when merging later.

    2. Slowness - in addition to point 1 above, as editing progresses Studio becomes increasingly slower and sluggish, particularly with more complex editing tasks. Re-starting Studio usually rectifies this problem temporarily, however, a re-boot is sometimes a better option. I think this is probably the issue you raised in 2016.

    Symptoms include: Studio becomes generally slower across all functions; the scroll bar becomes jerky or gets stuck during play; ‘play’ becomes slower to start; play ‘false starts’ – begins to play and suddenly stops within a few frames; selecting clips becomes erratic (select a clip and another clip or all the clips to the right are also selected); use of features that require the Alt, Ctrl and Shift keys becomes erratic (mostly it seems that they begin to operate in the opposite manner to normal operation); Memory usage slowly increases and is not released, particularly when working with pictures or copying large amounts of video.

    3. Rendering - if there is video populated on more than one track, where an edit causes content to the right of the edit point to move out of sync between the tracks then those sections of the timeline are completely re-rendered. On a large project this becomes a significant problem (at least for me). Rendering at the current edit point has to wait its turn which can be some time before the edit can be pre-viewed and any tweaking completed. The extensive rendering is not immediately apparent, the only way I know of to find this is to scroll along the timeline to see how much re-rendering is in progress. On some occasions the BROWN render indicator turns RED and the render will not complete. Waiting for the render to complete appears to be the only option if pre-viewing the edit is required but a Studio re-start is necessary to clear the RED indicator or if the BROWN indicator will not clear.

    Symptoms include: The BROWN render indicator remains above the timeline or turns RED instead of GREEN

    Workaround: When editing, place as little as possible source clips/scenes on separate tracks; as far as possible keep the tracks in sync to the right of the edit point – use Crtl + Shift when necessary to move all content to the right of the edit point away or toward the edit point and use Shift + Trimmer Icon to set multiple trim points. Be careful if using Close Gaps or similar commands.  This can also add significantly to slowness in the workflow.

    NOTE: Trim points set by the Shift + Trimmer feature are not always accurate (to my way of thinking) and may require manual adjustment to maintain sync.  In Studio build 21.2.1.176 any empty tracks in a project need to be deleted (or a small clip temporarily added) for the Shift + Trimmer feature to work - can be an additional issue if splitting projects as per point 1 above.

    In terms of editing time in S21, and I know this is subjective and dependent upon the user, the project being edited and the source content, I probably average less than about 5 or 6 minutes of edited video per hour exclusive of adding Titles, Background Music, etc, that I add later. By comparison, a project starting with say two hours of source clips/scenes would take at least 25 to 30 times longer to edit and complete in S21 than the same project in S15 or S16, using similar functions and features, due mainly to the impacts of points 1 to 3 above. For projects up to about 15 minutes in length (say 75 to 80 clips/scenes) there appears to be little if any lag or slowness in Studio 21 which is excellent for small projects (except for a few bugs in the current build that can be easily overcome). During testing I also noticed that if most of the source content is on the one track and editing consists mainly of adding fades/transitions, trimming clips and other simple activities then Studio will generally run for a couple of hours without any need to close and re-start. However, when a project is longer and more complex, involves copy or cut/paste, editing photos, or includes a lot of data on separate tracks, has detached audio and many effects added, Studio becomes slow/sluggish after 10 minutes or so of further editing and needs to be continually closed and re-started. In most cases this is when Memory usage for NGStudio.exe increases beyond about 650,000K in Task Manager (when Studio is opened Memory is around 450,000K on my P/C and can sometimes reach around 1,200,000K). The first sign of a slowness problem as in point 2 above is the scroll bar becomes jerky or sticks during play or multiple clips are selected when click on a single clip. It is often necessary to manually end the NGStudio.exe process via Task Manager.  This is necessary mostly after Studio is closed due to becoming very slow but this is not consistent.

    The GUI, functionality and features in S21 Ultimate are great and whilst there are still many issues that appear to be 'bugs', deficiencies waiting on the Feature Request list, and some functions/features that don't work the biggest problem for me is the lag times and general slowness as my projects usually start out with about 2 to 4 hours of footage on the timeline.  Any suggestions? 

  •  01-22-2018, 23:12 758539 in reply to 758383

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Thanks, Traveler, for your detailed reply.

    I feel Corel wants me to pay for an upgrade, without fixing an issue that prevents anyone serious about editing a long form project, from editing a long form project. They do not seem to have made any effort to update current customers, publically, on this issue. It was embarrassing having to make excuses to my client about their video.

    If they come out with a fix (which I doubt) before I get around to researching the current versions of Premiere and Vegas, I'll stick with them.

    Corel is obviously not Pinnacle. 

  •  09-08-2018, 13:39 770649 in reply to 758539

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Has anyone followed up with this or have any more information?  I've been using this software since version 17 (currently on 21) but I refuse to upgrade yet again to something else that constantly lags.  I've got an 8 core processor, 2GB video card, 32GB RAM and all SSD's (including PCI M2's) so the machine is screaming fast but it never seems that I use anywhere near that horsepower because I'm constantly waiting on this "phantom lag"...very frustrating, especially on larger projects.  I too have found the only thing that works is to break into pieces and re-assemble which on a 2+ hour video (or one with lots of media files) is a pain to keep track of.  I hope someone from Corel is listening!
  •  09-11-2018, 2:42 770774 in reply to 770649

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Hi

    After reporting the lag issue in PS20 to Corel their Tech Support requested a number of audits on my PC and remotely accessed it a couple of times.  Originally I thought the problem was with my PC but as it turned out it is almost certainly a software problem in Studio, however, Corel would not confirm this or provide any details of their findings. They did confirm that the PC spec was more than adequate to run Studio and suggested that the lag time could also be the underlying cause of other issues with some Effects. 

    I tried to follow up but was told that as I had already reported the issue (Studio 20 and 21) it should not be raised again.

    As far as I am aware it is still a major issue for long-form projects.  I recently completed some larger projects in PS 21.2.1.176 that took an extremely long time and was very frustrating, even when split into smaller components.  After combining the components to fine tune the final 60 to 75 minute movie projects the lag time was around 50 to 75 seconds after each edit (including: add/edit transition, add/delete/trim clip, add/edit Properties or Effects, etc).  For example, to tweak (fine adjustments) the settings of an existing PiP was taking about 10 to 12 minutes. Edits to audio were a bit quicker with about a 40 second lag, but some SmartSound files with volume key-frames needed to be deleted and re-created. To edit the combined final project I had to re-start PS after 5 or 6 edits otherwise it became even slower.

    I have found PS Build 21.2.1.176U to be the more stable, version.  In addition to the lag problems there are some other issues (such as cannot update project bins, ripple Transitions and IN Transitions create still image, cannot adjust volume across multiple clips, audio wave not synced to video, Color Match removed, Some SmartSound files not correctly rendering after adjustments where volume key-frames have been added, selecting a clip randomly selects all clips to the right and other annoying little workflow issues) but fairly simple work-arounds for them, however, the lag time is by far the biggest problem (at least for myself).

    I was looking forward to PS22 (after completing the projects created in PS21) and hoping the lag issues had been resolved.  However, it appears PS22 has introduced more issues (particularly Transitions which I use a lot) and I have not yet seen any comments re lag times. Bugs do occur and I don't mind reporting them but it seems that Corel is not interested in correcting the bugs and prefers to add new functions to already 'buggy' software.

    I would think that 'Updates' are for bug fixes.  New 'purchased' Versions are for added functions (new functionality added to a stable base), but I guess Corel has their own sales strategy.  Color Match is a good example; why not fix it rather than remove it...at least it worked although not very well for some video types?  

    I've run many tests to try and determine the cause of the lag issue but PS just seems to stall (no activity) until it is 'ready' to render if appropriate and allow the next edit/play timeline to proceed.  As previously advised, the lag problem appears to relate to the number of clips, scenes, pictures on the timeline, NOT the length of the timeline.

    A bit off-topic but I also discussed Transitions and to be honest they did not appear to understand the problem where video clips are extended (pink section).  The video is stilled which creates a stop/start effect when played and the audio misses the Transition and cuts out/ in sharply.  Their view was that 'this is how Transitions should work'.  I can see their objective is to preserve the length of the timeline and keep all tracks in sync but in my opinion Transitioning video requires overlapping (from either left clip, from both clips or from right clip).  The timeline has to be shortened to achieve a smooth video transition.  Automatically pulling back the content to the right on all other tracks in conjunction with a new or edited Transition should not be too difficult but any content on other tracks that spans the Transition point becomes a problem.  

    Having said this PS (at least PS21.2) appears to work very well with smaller projects where the lag is not an issue.  

    Other users may be able to provide an update re lag times in PS22.

    Cheers

  •  09-18-2018, 16:54 771170 in reply to 770774

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    You seemed to hit the nail on the head on every point...sounds like exactly what I go through with just about every project (some of mine get into the 2-3 hour range so it really gets bad).

     As far as the transitions issue you've been having - I too have experienced that.  My only solution is to separate the audio and manually edit it so that everything transitions as it should. I thought it was just the way it was supposed to be...I didn't question it, I just found a solution around it!  Big Smile

  •  09-20-2018, 9:32 771273 in reply to 771170

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Hi

    I'm don't think there is much else we can do re the lag issue except hope that Corel fixes the problem in a future release (if still a problem in PS22 that is).  As I mentioned there is no point, at least for myself as I always edit long-form projects, upgrading to PS22 and adding the Fade and Transition problems to the mix.

    Resolving the Fade and Transition issues should be relatively simple.  One suggestion is that the forum prepare an outline of what is required and send it to Corel for consideration.  I guess another would be to prepare a more detailed proposal for submission as an enhancement request. As I see it, for both Fades and Transitions, basically:

    1. Option for IN, CENTRE or OUT Fade and Transition types.  Transitions can be added to one or more selected clips/pictures on the Timeline without having to EDIT the 'type' later unless required as a part of editing the content later.

    2. When in Insert or Smart Modes overlap the clips as appropriate and shorten the timeline (need to consider sync and rendering).  An option to 'pull back' or 'not change' content on other tracks should be possible.

    3. When in Overwrite Mode extend the content if not pre-trimmed or sufficiently pre-trimmed and highlight the extended portion in PINK...the length of the timeline is maintained and clips always kept in sync.

    4. What works for video should probably also work OK for Pictures.  However, where video is adjacent to pictures the audio should fade IN or OUT as appropriate with Fades and Transitions.

    5. Ripple - as per the Mode of the timeline Points 2 and 3 above.  It appears it would be very complex to try and maintain sync when using Insert or Smart Mode for Rippling video so manual adjustments would be necessary.

    There would be some more detailed process rules necessary to address the various scenarios that could occur.

  •  09-23-2018, 17:29 771414 in reply to 771273

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    I've given up Corel ever fixing this issue. They're more interested in adding features to maintain sales.

    Has anyone used the LE version of Premier and have an opinion of that software? 

  •  09-23-2018, 17:53 771415 in reply to 771414

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    It has been several versions since I used Premiere.  I use to love it.  I stopped using it because they fell behind the curve on file type import & export support and features.  I'm not sure where they are now.

    I was excited about the initial effort Corel put into fixing major bugs in PS, but I agree it has become more about marking hype than fixing existing issues.  What software company hasn't done the same thing.  It's all too common to make the paying customer test and work the bugs out of their software at your time and expense.  The bean counters at the corporate level are pretty short sighted and only see new customer acquisition(New bells and whistle) costs, not owner loyalty(fixing bug) costs.  This is all too common in todays society as well.  Look at GoPro.  They once had it all, and now they are almost broke.

    I stumble upon this lag issue every now and again, but a restart of the program clears it for me.  I agree that it's on longer and more complicated projects.  It seems to me that it is caused by a background render being interrupted by another background render request before it has completed the previous render.  Just my experience.  I just finished a two hour and thirteen minute movie and ran into the lag issue twice during editing.  Both times, a PS21.5 restart made it go away.  There is still a small memory leak in PS, but I don't think it is causing this.  You could download and install process explorer and find out what process is sucking up the CPU usage when it lags, but it will probably fall on dead ears at this point.

  •  09-23-2018, 18:14 771418 in reply to 771415

    Re: Studio 20 & 21 - Performance - Lag Times When Editing

    Most of my videos are under 10 minutes. That's about the limit of the average attention span of people today unless it's a mega Marvel movie. But I edit for a company back in the States. Each week I edit an hour video. Basic things. I can cut, remove, cut, trim, etc. all using the keyboard short cuts just about as fast as I type (I'm a touch typist) and all goes great until I hit "play". That is where my "lag problems" are with PS21.5.

    They go on hiatus during the summer. Now, I am back to editing, but this time, with PS22. I will see how things go once I get past the 20minute mark and report back if there is a change in editing. 

    As for reporting these issues. I don't think they fall on "dead ears". I do think that there Corel wants to fix these issues. It's a matter of time and money. I can only imagine the markup on the product isn't that much. And it's no better with issues with other software. Just cruise through the forums and read. BTW, PD does moderate their forum. I know personally a user who had his posts removed because he posted about a continual long standing bug.

    Also, look what PS can do. I paid much much more just a few years ago for Avid Liquid Pro. And now, Pinnacle Studio is fulfilling that promise to us Liquid users made over 7 years ago. A slightly down scaled version of Avid Liquid.  In a perfect world, we would have perfect software and the "bean counters" would not run the company. Competition keeps software companies adding and adding to out advertise each other. Yes, it looks good on the box, "zillions of fx and transitions" compared to "thousands". Which would the average customer buy, and plod along...

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