Here at Timeless Moments we are producing around 2 - 4 projects every day for customers and whilst most of them are fairly basic, many do require complex corrections using the many plugins available in Studio. Our biggest issue, being a business that can't afford to lose time, is that of failing during writing, can be anywhere along the timeline but more usually near the end of a 2 hour write, or hanging during writing final file.

We have discovered a simple solution that seems to work every time (so far at least) and doesn't take an age to re-render the project again. I thought I'd jot this down in a thread as it may help others.

Basically we do the following:

UPDATE:

Before the following: If your menu has motion backgrounds it is worth re-encoding the motion background at the same rate as the DVD you are going to make. Also if you want music in the menu, add this to the motion background when you re-encode. These two additional steps ensures that Studio has less rendering during the final DVD image creation and will solve some errors reported below in this thread.

1. Complete all editing including the complex menu/s with motion backgrounds but we do not bother to assign menus manually, just take the auto function for now as we are going to delete the menu in a minute. Once the menu is made we save it to the customer's folder for later use.
2. Go to Make Movie and select Disc to make a DVD image.
3. Note down the data rate that Studio is going to use to make the DVD. This is the amount of compression the MPEG-2 stream has to be compressed to get it on the DVD (the minimum data rate I can see is 2000 Kbits per second, giving 266 minutes on a single layer DVD). So for example, my movie with menus will compress at 4679 Kbits/sec.
4. Go back to the timeline and delete your menu (or you could leave it but this means you have to cut it out later and I don't like cutting into MPEG-2 files).
5. Go back to Make Movie.
6. Now select the make File and select MPEG-2 File type and the preset as custom.
7. Go into settings and select a data rate the same as or lower than the one you noted earlier, so in this case I could select 4600 Kbits/sec (Studio only allows increments of 200 Kbits/sec)
8. Make your MPEG-2 file.
9. After the file has been successfully rendered, make a new project.
10. Begin the final project by importing the MPEG-2 file you just made and then add your menu.
11. Save the project.
12. To be 99% sure of having a successful render at this point we switch off the PC (not restart) for 1 minute including any external drives that are used.
13. Switch on PC and go to Windows. Find the Render folder and delete it.
14. Start Studio, load your project.
15. Go to make movie and select Disc. In settings, make sure the "Always re-encode entire movie" is NOT checked.
16. Make movie.

As Studio does not have to re-encode the MPEG-2 stream in any way because it is already the correct size for the DVD (you did this in step 7) the writing process will proceed at between 200 - 500 fps depending on the speed of your drives and PC.

So in total, there is very little extra time required as a 1 hour movie will render in around 3 - 6 minutes plus a little time for writing final file.

It is important to do all your editing before starting the MPEG-2 encoding process otherwise Studio will have to re-encode that bit and you will be editing MPEG-2 GOPs, not good and causes many issues such as colour fringing if the colour saturation control is used.

Hope that's of interest.

Ian

Thanks for the tip Ian. This one deserves a Sticky.

Gerry

Thanks Gerry. If it only helps one person it was worth writing, I know it's sure as hell saved me a fortune in time, effort and follicles!

Cheers

Ian

Thanks for sharing your workaround, Iain.

If I understand your description correctly, you are basically rendering the project to MPEG file and then using THAT render as the basis for DVD authoring. The menu and chapter points are then added and Studio saves much time by Smart Rendering it all for the burn image. 

It would be interesting to determine whether it actually saves time over the traditional workaround of rendering the project to a DV avi and THEN authoring (requiring a second MPEG render) to DVD image. Seems to me that any project will take less time to render to DV than to MPEG, particularly if we are using a DV capture file. And then authoring/rendering THAT to MPEG will be very straightforward because all the filters, etc. were already added in the DV project render stage... although no Smart Rendering can take place here to save time in this scenario.

I can't honestly say which way is faster. But the important thing is now you are rendering the project BEFORE authoring and THAT is the key to a successful creation of a viable DVD image when running Studio. Glad to hear you got that problem sorted and can get back to the very important role of helping customers preserve their irreplaceable video memories for future generations!    

Kent

Thanks for your comments and kind words about what we do, you're right it is a very worthwhile endeavour.

The old work around (rendering to avi first) is fine, but is definitely not as fast. I get around 80 - 120 FPS rendering to avi, and then once I bring that into the project again and add menus then render we are back to the normal 33-40 fps. With the method outlined above the rendering speeds are 33-40 fps making the finished mpeg file and between 200 and 400 fps (sometimes even more) on the final render, and the reason is down to the fact that we have measured the exact data rate necessary to get the maximum quality on the SL DVD. With the avi method I don't think there is a way to be sure (as there's bound to be a difference in the captured data rate and that which Studio renders) and if your movie is over 67 minutes (100% quality) you'll begin to see a reduction in rendering time as Studio has to re-encode the footage to fit the disk. Anyway as you said, the main lesson here is rendering the project before authoring, I thought our way of doing it is faster and may be of interest. Why not do a test project and measure total rendering time for each method, I think I'll have a go at that this week if I can squeeze it in.

Cheers

Ian

Ian.

 How does one know what their FPS rendering speed is??? I may be slow..but I'm not sure I know how to look at what ever and see what the speed is....

Please explain...I would sincerely appreciate knowing how to judge or see this speed number...

thanks very much,

rob 

Rob

When Studio is writing the movie file there is a readout of the frame number it is writing, it is simply a case of estimating how many frames it has written in the last second, or to be more accurate how many frames in the last minute. There is no actual fps meter.

 Ian

Thanks Ian!!!

Rob

UPDATE

Today I finished a fairly complex project with motion background main and scene menu including motion thumbnails (one about half screen size), the motion backgrounds were 1 min 10 s long. The timeline contained 90 minutes of footage with around 15 chapters, 250 photos, 6 minutes highlights section, picture in picture overlaying a 3 minutes scrolling credits title. Each chapter title was also overlaying a motion background. The whole movie was scored with a combination of smartsound, a little scorefitter, mp3s and some wavs. Using the method I outlined above for each of the two volumes, both around the same time and complexity, worked first time, prior to using this method, even using the render to avi first would have meant several attempts or having to ditch the motion backgrounds entirely. I am more confident now that this approach seems to be the best solution, at least for us, and all projects of similar complexity are now produced this way saving us literally hours of time per day.

Ian

Hello Ian,

My name is Dave (aka Raiders).   I am a relative newbie to video editing.   I take a miniDV tape with about 90 minutes of footage, capture it to Studio 10.6 (now patched up to 10.8), do simple editing to cut out any really bad footage and sounds to finish with about an 80 minute project.   I use some simple transitions between a "birthday party" and "a day at the beach" (any change of family event).     I then put in standard menus with a chapter at the beginning of the "birthday party" and subsequent "day at the beach" etc.   For three tapes, I was able to trasfer everything onto a DVD - Sudio did everything it claimed it would.   On the 4th tape, I ran into the dreaded "hanging during 'writing final file'".  

 I have ample hard drive space.   Studio is on my C:\ drive ... the video is on the D:\ drive ... I have defragmeneted ... yada yada ... I am pretty sure I have done everything I am supposed to, with powerful enough system etc.   Periodically, I go back to my Tape3 project and it always works (image or burn to disc).

 When I saw your solution, I was excited and had a feeling it would work for me to finally finish up my 4th project.  I followed your 16 steps.   All was going well until step 16.   It hung during writing final file.   Interestingly, I have been able to image and then create a DVD using your method of rendering first to MPEG-2 ... when I removed the menus - at least I have that.   But with the menus.   No luck.

I was wondering if my settings were off on the final render.   My value for step 3 above was 5544 Kbits/sec.   I rendered to MPEG-2 using 5400 Kbits/sec.   ... so ... I have two questions.   Firstly, w.r.t. beginning the final file project by importing the MPEG-2 file.   The import file function does not show any files for me when the browser comes up and go to where the MPEG-2 should be.   Thus, to bring the file in, I simply browse to the MPEG-2 in the raw footage board above the timeline and double click on the MPEG-2 file ... scene detection begins and when completed, I drag all the scenes to the time line and save as a new project.   I then add the menu and chapters.    That should be OK, correct?

Secondly, when I make movie, create disc, should the setting be custom again so that I can set a Kbit/sec rate, choosing (what number?) something like 5000 to keep the value below the 5600 value it seems to want to use in the automatic setting?   Or do I use the automatic setting?   I think I have tried both and both have hung.   I am depressed.   I know you've had 100% success with this work around.   I was hoping it would work for me.   Am I doing something wrong?   I don't believe in unistalling, then re-installing.   If it still burns my previous project, I don't think a re-install will do anything and I know its is not my burner.

 Any suggestions?   I appreciate any help you can offer.   Even if you can't, I appreciate all you've contributed already.  (P.S. sorry for such a long message)

Raiders

Hello Raiders

 "My value for step 3 above was 5544 Kbits/sec"

Was this with a menu? If not then the problem is that you have rendered to MPEG without a menu, or more correctly with a data rate that fails to take into account the extra compression the MPEG stream will need to allow for the menu. For example, if you render a finished project without menu to DVD and the automatic setting is telling you 6000 Kbits/sec, once you add a menu and depending on it's complexity (especially motion background) the the automatic settings would be lower, say 5600 Kbits/sec. Your value of 5400 Kbits/sec is very close indeed to the automatic setting, if you added a menu AFTER you obtained the correct data rate then it would definitely be re-rendered (which is where the problems begin)

"Secondly, when I make movie, create disc, should the setting be custom again so that I can set a Kbit/sec rate, choosing (what number?) something like 5000 to keep the value below the 5600 value it seems to want to use in the automatic setting?"

No, any change to this setting will result in re-encoding of the MPEG stream as I understand it, again this is the problem area for Studio.

"Thus, to bring the file in, I simply browse to the MPEG-2 in the raw footage board above the timeline and double click on the MPEG-2 file ... scene detection begins and when completed, I drag all the scenes to the time line and save as a new project.   I then add the menu and chapters.    That should be OK, correct?"

This is fine, it's how I always load my footage.

 Finally, I would look again at the motion background in your menu if present. It may be worth rendering the motion background as an MPEG with the same data rate as your finished project.

Good luck.

Ian

Thanks so much for your reply Ian.   I am truly grateful.  

The number of 5544 Kbit/sec was after with a menu still in.    So it should have accounted for that.   However, since then, I have changed the menu I am trying to use (using one that I had success with in the past).    But there is motion in it.   It is a Studio standard ("Now Showing") ... but yes there is motion.

Also ... I think I am close but I am not quite understanding you.   I should NOT use custom and and set any data rate myself - OK.    You are saying I should use the Automatic setting?   The value in the Kbits/sec should match that I have written down before?    What if it does not?

... Finally you wrote: "Finally, I would look again at the motion background in your menu if present. It may be worth rendering the motion background as an MPEG with the same data rate as your finished project."

Again, I am sorry ... I do not follow.    You mean as a separate project?    Just the menu?   Can one do that?    Or are you suggesting not deleting the menu of the original project?   And rendering to MPEG ... or do you mean a 2nd rendering to MPEG?   I am sorry for my ignorance.   I think if I can get this organized in my head, I have a feeling I can make this work.   Basically, what I am asking is what should I be looking at in the settings for the final Make Movie-Creat Disk?

Sincere thanks and appreciation for all of your help,

Raiders

Hi Raiders, no worries, I just hope I can help you.

Also ... I think I am close but I am not quite understanding you.   I should NOT use custom and and set any data rate myself - OK.    You are saying I should use the Automatic setting?   The value in the Kbits/sec should match that I have written down before?    What if it does not?

If it does not then set it yourself, it should be higher than the value that you used to make the original MPEG, this way Studio won't have to re-encode the film.

Again, I am sorry ... I do not follow.    You mean as a separate project?    Just the menu?   Can one do that?    Or are you suggesting not deleting the menu of the original project?

 No, I am not saying that you should not delete the menu, although the only reason I added that step is that it saves time rendering and my chief concern was that of time saving. The motion background for the menu is kept in a seperate folder in c:\program files\pinnacle\studio 11\motion backgrounds or somewhere similar. This file will probably be an MPEG. However, it will almost certainly be originally rendered at a higher data rate than the one you want, which means that during the final render of your project Studio does indeed have to re-encode that portion of the film. This would normally not cause too much of a problem, but then studio has more bugs in it than my garden so I wouldn't be surprised if it did. So here's the plan. If you rendered your project to MPEG at 5200 Kbits/sec then the motion background should be rendered at the same rate. Start a new project and import the motion background from it's location into the timeline, then render it out at the same data rate as your project but in a new folder where you'll be able to find it quickly. After this, re-open your project and edit the menu, select the motion background you just created. Now we have a situation where Studio won't have to do any re-encoding at all, it only has to write the menu structure to the ifo files (which it also gets wrong) and output the image.

Hope that helps

Ian 

Wow Ian

I think I follow.   

You wrote: … After this, re-open your project and edit the menu, select the motion background you just created.

I interpret this to mean delete the old menu (and chapters that will go with it) and drag this one (which I have just newly rendered at the lower data rate, matching my 5544 Kbit/sec) into my time line.   Then create chapters, name them and save.    Rendering this finished project will require no re-encoding and the image should be created with no hang ups.

Wish me luck and THANKS so much for your help!   I will not be able to try this for a few days (kids and such), so I will get back to you when I’ve given it a go.   I promise to get back to you, successful or not.   I am so appreciative!

Raiders

Raiders and anyone else interested in this solution: There is an update added today which will solve continuing problems for some people. See the whole procedure in the first post.

Ian

Hi Ian

I DID get a chance to try rendering the menu motion background at the same rate as my project.   I then edited my menu with the re-rendered motion background in my project ... I then had to manually set the data rate to 5400 using custom ...

... and ... IT WORKED!   I have a DVD with a menu and fully functioning video and audio!!   THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!   I would never have known to do to this without your help - how many average users could have known this?    Does Pinnacle offer this support?   Anyway, I will try to take your teachings and apply them to all of my future videos.

And thanks for adding this information to the first post.    My question now is if you know this stuff and we now know this stuff (through you) ... why has Studio not patched their software to avoid these issues?        But alas, that may be a question for another day.

 Final question ... How will I ever re-pay you for your kindness?

Take care and talk to you soon.

Dave (aka Raiders)

" THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!   I would never have known to do to this without your help - how many average users could have known this?    Does Pinnacle offer this support? "

This is specialist knowledge gleaned from thousands of hours using Studio, the average user would not know this that's why we have the forum so that I and people far more knowlegable than I can help everyone. Pinnacle could not possibly support all the myriad of problems that people have when using a complex program like this. Granted, many of the issues in Studio are just plain old bugs, but many are determined by the combination of project type, computer specs, background process, user error, etc, probably millions of variables that mean some people have problems others don't. Regarding this particular bug, hanging during final file has been around since version 9 at least and in my opinion it should really have been sorted by now.

"Final question ... How will I ever re-pay you for your kindness?"

Just keep using Studio, accepting that it's not perfect and discover the little work arounds that can help us all, after all we were all beginners at one time. In the meantime I am very pleased to have helped you finish your project.

Ian

Thank you Ian

This gives me a new perspective on Studio and those that created it and support it.   I have been trying not be critical because there are a lot of really good features in the software.   Now I know I was right not to be overly upset.    I will keep using it and applying the various work arounds.   It is actually kind of fun challenging oneself.

As for you, all the best with your business.  I hope it continues to prosper.   Sounds to me like you deserve all the success you get.

Raiders

Many thanks for your good wishes. Have fun using Studio.

Best wishes

Ian

UPDATE

The above method has been tested on three PCs running 11.1.1 and 11.1.2 and using Studio standard menus. So far 100% success on 10 projects comprising 22 DVDs.

IAN - Slightly off Topic, however I thought I'd Post a "Thanks for coming back" & offering a couple of great solutions, in 2 different Topics.

BTW - I do visit your WebSite from time-to-time, to see how you're getting on. Nicely constructed.

Peter 

Peter Many thanks for your kind words.

Cheers

Ian