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Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

Last post 3 hours, 21 minutes ago by Tony P. 65 replies.
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  •  07-02-2019, 11:26 786144 in reply to 786142

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: DSC_2755z.jpg

    And finally, a shot of one rig without me blocking it. The lovely Mrs V standing by. This must have been right before they started and the people are at stage 2. I can see the cameras are on record. 

     

     

    And thats it with pictures for now  So I will post back here with progress on using MCE to process concert footage like this.  I will check back, so if ANYONE else has ideas, post away!  Thanks!!!!!

    EDIT - picture is sideways here ion the post, but click on it and it is correct. Might fix itself... 


  •  07-03-2019, 6:22 786171 in reply to 786144

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Looking at the last photo, curious as to how you move the cameras... by standing on something? Why 3 cameras at the same location?

     

  •  07-03-2019, 7:38 786172 in reply to 786171

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    The two center cameras are on Bescor 101 motorized pan/tilt devices. (MPT)  If you look at the table, you can see one of the remotes tucked there. Mrs V is blocking the view of the other on the right. 

     

    There are 4 cameras in that shot, the outer ends being 'fixed' and the center on the MPT bases. 

    1)  One of he 'fixed' cameras is a wide shot, close to the biggest picture I can get. It is nice in the outdoor venues to give a sense of atmosphere. I work with a few lighting people that are exceptional, and it is nice to get this part of their performance captured also.

    2) The other fixed is a much closer, but still a full stage view. I get all the musicians in, and the event/venue badging (banner/sign/logo) prominent. Gotta keep the promoter happy.

    3) The first MPT camera is a stage view with 1/2 to 1/3 of the stage visible. 2-6 musicians depending on group.  This is to get a closer view of the musicians and their interactions on stage. Some bands are 'set and forget' with little movement, others are more animated and need more attention. 

    4) The other MPT is the tight solo cam. Generally only one musician in the frame. I put my best camera on this. Gets the tight solo work, and the view most at the event dont see. This one requires the most attention.

     

    The TV monitors are for the two MPT cams. (I can switch them using a remote to show the 'fixed' cams also, but hardly ever do) In the previous pic with me controlling, you can see the monitors are low, cameras high and I can see the band in the middle. So can other event participants, I am blocking minimum view with my rig.  Once again: capture the show without being the show. 

    The four cameras make it possible for one guy to cover a stage well. I found that watching the band was critical, as it gives me hints as to where to pan for the next 'spotlight' moment. I can pan the wider MPT quickly to the correct area, allowing a quick transition later in post,and 'with' the music. Then I can get the solo cam into position, and transition to that without 'bumpy footage'. Sometimes in a fade you can see I was moving a camera, but I am getting better at having my live filming make post production a bit easier. 

     The two fixed cameras I do move with the aid of the small aluminum ladder you see on the lower left. I did hook them up to the monitors, but it was difficult to aim them and see the monitor. Just as easy to use the viewscreen. 

     


    This rig is a work in progress, and the first time I had it set up !! Not bad for a shakedown cruise. :)

    Previous to this, I had the tree with the cameras on some absolutely HORRIBLE clamps. My only way to aim/monitor the cameras was through the viewfinder. Adjusting was while on the ladder. :O     

    I would have to aim the cameras pre-set, and hope I was close.. moving them during the set rocked the tree badly.  Had to be done sometimes. Even now, when my fixed cam/s need adjustment during the set, I try to minimize shake. 

     

    ********************  Back to the thread topic........ 

     

     Had good success splitting the set up into pieces, looks like 3 large and one small part. I kept the total file involvement below 32GB for each project, and it was freeze free.  WOOOOOHOOOOO!!!! 

     

  •  07-10-2019, 15:03 786339 in reply to 786172

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Well, I am not too happy with the results. Piecing together the 4 pieces and syncing audio is a PITA.  The trim feature goes only so fine in resolution, so my cuts are off just enough that I cant use the camera audio. I like to, as it is in 5.1 and supplies the room noise. I keep it ~16 dB down, but ti does add ambiance. With the soundboard only it sounds 'lifeless'. 

     

    Now, in addition to having 3-4 separate parts that I have to recombine, looks like I will have to rip the 5.1 audio from the camera video, blend with soundboard and re-import as finished audio.  Great. MORE time. 

      

    I must be missing something.

    This is a 4 camera 90 minute set. 1920x1080 17mBs. Not like I am shooting 4K. And MCE cant handle it?!? 

     

    I will now have to venture to support. Will report back.  Somewhat surprised support does not monitor this forum. Thanks for the help Tony, and also shout out to Saby for the coding help. ;) 

  •  07-10-2019, 16:11 786340 in reply to 786339

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    MCE doesn't do 5.1

    I haven't worked with 4 90minute clips so can't comment on it.

    But when I've done music videos, audio sync has been spot on.

    Ever think about shortening your clips and then piecing them together at the end?h Yes more laborious, but it might get the job done.

    Also, have you looked at the waveforms to see if they line up while in the MCE?

  •  07-10-2019, 16:13 786341 in reply to 786339

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    The last concert I shot, I used Gopro's and fusion cameras in 4k.  Controlled them with a single gopro remote.  All the files are in sync.  Not perfectly, about 200msec off after an hour and a half, but not really noticeable. I do make small adjustments here and there.  I as well only use a single cameras audio, and bring the levels up on others between songs or shout outs.

    With the Fusions, you change re-shoot any scene as many times as you would like.  I don't use PS or gopro's software to do the 3D overcapture to 16:9 conversion.  I use "Insta360 Studio".  It works awesome.  I then place all the clips on the PS21.5 timeline, use the razor to cut each transition, then delete the clip portions you don't want displayed.

    Anyway, I know it doesn't help you now, but maybe for your next shoot!

    Good luck. 

  •  07-11-2019, 10:13 786347 in reply to 786340

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Hey Tony!  Answered back with ***** around my replies.  

     

    Tony P:

    MCE doesn't do 5.1

    *****  If I select the camera with 5.1 for the audio in MCE, it is exported with it somehow when I get back to editor. You are correct, I dont think it is 5.1 when I am in MCE, only after it gets back to editor. I am getting rear signal from something.. maybe the proxy used in MCE indeed does not have 5.1 but when it subs the original back in it uses the 5.1?  ****

    I haven't worked with 4 90minute clips so can't comment on it.

    But when I've done music videos, audio sync has been spot on.

    *****  Depending on the compression the camera uses, sometimes it has trouble. I have found single files from a camera sync MUCH better than several together. The longer ones may have more potential matches (?) that confuse the feature. Since I used the 'just sync the first files' method, I have had VERY good success. If I put 3-4 files from each camera on THEN sync it has a much harder time, and more mismatches. ***

    Ever think about shortening your clips and then piecing them together at the end?h Yes more laborious, but it might get the job done.

    **** See previous post, thats what I am doing now.  With more work and trimming issues.  ***

    Also, have you looked at the waveforms to see if they line up while in the MCE?

    *** HECK yes!  Before using my 'first file only on sync' method, I frequently had to line them up by eye and ear. I am very, very familiar with using the waveforms. As a matter of fact, thats how I found out the issues with not waiting for proxys to be generated. In the waveform view, you cant see rendering progress.  If you try to line up the audio waveforms pre-render, they will line up visually but the sound will be off. A visual mismatch of the waveforms will be needed to have them sync when you listen. WAIT for the proxy to be generated and this is not a problem. 

     

     

    Thanks again!  

  •  07-11-2019, 10:36 786348 in reply to 786347

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    MCE itself is proxy editing. I am not sure that 5.1 is a part of that. When you export, there should be 5.1 since it exports from your original files.

    When I've done music videos, I've used the same camera maker (Panasonic) and they use the same compression, etc.. so never an issue with audio sync. But I usually audio sync to an audio file that comes from the recording studio. The singer is just lip syncing.

    Again, I've not worked on 90 min files, so can not account for audio drift between the files by the time you move further down the timeline.

  •  07-11-2019, 11:40 786350 in reply to 786348

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    OK,  I am NOT having problems with audio drift. 

    When I was doing the entire set in one go, it would stay sync'd all the way to the end.  

    Step by step:

    Setup: 4 cameras each with 6 files covering a 90 min set. Each file is ~2Gb, or 17 min.

     

    1) Load the first file from each camera into MCE. Wait for rendering.

    2) Audio sync. Usually works GREAT with just the first files to do.

    3) With tracks sync'd,  add the files to each camera's timeline(?) on MCE. I only add 2-3 files (4-6Gb) at a time, or else things freeze up. And WAIT for each of the added files to render before attempting to add more, otherwise freeze up again.

    4) As I add the tracks, it s fine until I start to get up to ~16 files total. Then MCE starts to 'stutter', it will have delays, and take time for the files to 'appear' on the timeline after adding them. 

    5) Once I get close to 32Gb, MCE just stops working. Attempting to add files will result in MCE freezing up.

     

     

    The (original) problem isnt audio drift, it is that MCE cant seem to load above 32GB of files (or their proxy equivalent?)   I am not sure if it is a software problem or if there is something on my computer doing it. I went to the expense of buying a new computer with Win 10 64 bit pro, 64GB of ram, 6 core processor JUST to run pinnacle studio. It will do smaller projects, but not my larger ones. I have a few 2 hr shows that I have not even processed. Artists have givin up on me for now. :( 

     

    RE: compression- I use all Sony handycams, but different models. (about 11 total I think now...)  Even among the same models, the audio recording can be very different. I got many used, so maybe it was a rough life before, or ????. But even among the same brand and model I have found big differences in Audio. If audio is important, I know which cameras give the best audio and I use them :)  They do all stay in sync, but the waveforms from some of them are about impossible to sync visually. Using my 'First Files Only' method, the sync works fine every time, so manual alignment has not been an issue. 

    Now there IS sync issues when I am trying to split up the set for MCE, then recombine it in editor to one set. I can get really close to the same spot on the waveform to make the 'seam' between pieces, but it is off enough that after 3 'seams' it is very noticeable.  

    I can see now where the 'workaround' problems have been mixed in with the original problem in the thread. Sorry!  Will try to be clearer.  

    @ ACSSCott - still working on understanding your post!  NOOB here. THANK YOU for the patience, and THANK YOU for the response, will be addressing it soon. On lunch here at work. 

     

     

     

     

  •  07-11-2019, 12:09 786351 in reply to 786341

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    OK!  Some googling taught me what a 'Fusion' camera is, its a 360* gopro. I hope to use some of that sweet 360 footage someday....

    First, THANKS for the reply. I am a noob, and know I am using the wrong terms sometimes. And I may not know about 'basic' things...like I have no idea how to use markers. :O  

     Replies to your quote are nested within it with a ****** befor eand after. 

     

    acsscott:

    The last concert I shot, I used Gopro's and fusion cameras in 4k.  Controlled them with a single gopro remote.  All the files are in sync.  Not perfectly, about 200msec off after an hour and a half, but not really noticeable. I do make small adjustments here and there.  I as well only use a single cameras audio, and bring the levels up on others between songs or shout outs.

    ***** Nice!  Few questions.. How long a show? When you have all the footage together from that shoot, how big is the whole package? Above, I set an example where a 90 min shoot results in ~48GB of video files to process. Using 4K I would think it would be much bigger....

     I never stop the cameras during a set, but will if there are breaks between sets. If I am not monitoring a stage, like this last festy, I just 'set and forget' and edit the dead time out.

    I generally can get soundboard audio to mix in the matrix, as I am recording with the 'blessing' of the band/venue/promoter. When I am 'just a rogue taper' I will use Zoom H2n recorders for audio supplementing. I have some tricks that can give near soundboard quality from good PA sound using the H2n's recording in MS raw. 

    Unfortunately, one remote wont work all my cameras.   Some do not have remote capability, some do. 

    You dont notice 200ms of sound misalignment?!?! I get irritated when it gets off by more than 15ms... 200ms would be near unsustainable. Maybe you are referring to video sync? Then yeah, I bet that goes unnoticed. ******.  

    With the Fusions, you change re-shoot any scene as many times as you would like.  I don't use PS or gopro's software to do the 3D overcapture to 16:9 conversion.  I use "Insta360 Studio".  It works awesome.  I then place all the clips on the PS21.5 timeline, use the razor to cut each transition, then delete the clip portions you don't want displayed.

    *** AWESOME. I am SO looking forward to using 360 footage... but after I get MCE to work. A 20 foot jib crane is on the wish list, and would be so cool to have a 360 on it.  THANK YOU for the guidance on Insta 360 studio, will keep that in mind.  *** 

    Anyway, I know it doesn't help you now, but maybe for your next shoot!

    Good luck. 

     Thanks. Every little bit helps, even if I dont know what to do with the knowledge at present time. 

      

    THANK YOU SO MUCH for the reply.  

  •  07-11-2019, 13:58 786354 in reply to 786351

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    I have no knowledge if there is a file size limit to the MCE.

    I don't know if you have other drives on your computer, but I am guessing that you have tried having MCE proxy folder moved to it?

  •  07-11-2019, 15:59 786356 in reply to 786354

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    I don't use MCE, so I don't know if there is a proxy file size limit.  Two Fusions and two gopros at 4K for 90 minutes is about 450-500gigs.  These four clips work fine on the timeline in parallel.

    I detach the audio from the video track on the camera I want to grab the audio from.  Once detached, I move the audio to the bottom track.  I just re-sync the video to the main audio track during cuts or transitions.  A simple cut, then ctrl-shft to select all the downstream tracks and clicks, then pull them back re-aligns the audio.  Only needed when showing close-ups.

    With the fusions, there is no need for a jib crane.  It's amazing.  The INsta360 X one is supposedly even better, but it won't work with my gopro remote, so for now I'm sticking with the fusions.

    They make a foam dart(drifter) body for the insta360 cameras, that allows them to be thrown over the audience and capture everyone and everything.  The dart body does not appear on the video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQf0-X1S2Q

    It's a totally new way to record. Since it records everything, you can even tie it on a string and swing it around.  You can thing pull any and as many 16:9 video clips from the 360 video that you want.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4qsUHSAWvU 

     This was the clip that made me decide to buy the fusions.  The Insta360 in the car wheel video has a scratched up water proof case on it.  The Fusion is waterproof without a case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6weD4EeyLVs

    The drawback.  Each fusion takes two SD cards.  One for front video and one for back video.  It does take a overclocked i9-9900k several days to stitch the 90 minute front and back 5.1k video files together into a 10.2k or 4k 360 video file.  Then I use INsta360 studio to pull my 16:9 video shots from that.  That goes pretty fast.  You can retake as many clips as you want from the same shot.  I then load these into PS for final editing.

     

  •  07-11-2019, 16:45 786357 in reply to 786356

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    The forums file upload keeps giving me a directory not found error.  I was trying to upload a 4.7 meg very compressed 720p video clip of some fusion concert clips.

  •  07-11-2019, 17:40 786358 in reply to 786354

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate


    Yes indeed, the proxy folder size was an issue in the past. It appears that Pinnacle does not 'self clean' so that file gets bigger and bigger.... mine was 920+Gb on a 1Tb drive.... II was wondering WTF was going on .... and then emptied.

    I now include proxy cleanup as part of post-production tasks. 

    It is still on the main drive, as it is convenient.  

     

    Much like the 4GB maximum RAM usage, I wonder if it is in the software.   A 32GB limit to the size of the managed files? I am more inclined to think it is a local computer/Win10 problem.   Or so I really hope! I love the MCE.  

  •  07-11-2019, 18:29 786359 in reply to 786358

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    No it doesn't auto clean. You have to do it, just like rendered files. If it did that, every time you would go back to the MCE with a project, you would have to wait for files to be rendered as proxies.

    So, in the MCE>Smart Proxy Manager, you can choose what files you want to delete.

    Just like you can click on that Delete rendered files.... in Setup>Control Panel>Storage Locations.

  •  07-12-2019, 5:19 786365 in reply to 786359

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Tony P:

    No it doesn't auto clean. You have to do it, just like rendered files. If it did that, every time you would go back to the MCE with a project, you would have to wait for files to be rendered as proxies.

    So, in the MCE>Smart Proxy Manager, you can choose what files you want to delete.

    Just like you can click on that Delete rendered files.... in Setup>Control Panel>Storage Locations.

     

    OR if you are a noob like me, just hunt around looking for the &*$(^% big folder thats slowing the computer until you find the Pinnacle folder in documents, then arrange by date. erase everything from last project to the beginning. :)  

     

    For me, its not a big deal to delete the files automatically after I am done exporting my project. I keep the raw on external drives for 'just in case', but I almost never go back. I imagine if one was doing a colossal project over days that would be a concern!!  

     

    Thank you for showing me the correct way to find the proxies (and rendered files?) I will look into that method.  

  •  07-12-2019, 5:29 786366 in reply to 786365

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    So some, deleting ALL rendered files after each project is no big deal. For others, like me, it would be. The software has no way of knowing if you completed a project or not. There were times when I thought I was finished, but due to some last minute requests, I've had to go back and do some re-editing.

    A (to me at least) fateful Delete All Rendered Files button would cause more disasters than me having to manually delete them since they are only stored in 2 locations.

    The forum would be flooded with "how do I get back those rendered files?"

  •  07-12-2019, 5:41 786367 in reply to 786356

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    acsscott:

    I don't use MCE, so I don't know if there is a proxy file size limit.  Two Fusions and two gopros at 4K for 90 minutes is about 450-500gigs.  These four clips work fine on the timeline in parallel.

    I detach the audio from the video track on the camera I want to grab the audio from.  Once detached, I move the audio to the bottom track.  I just re-sync the video to the main audio track during cuts or transitions.  A simple cut, then ctrl-shft to select all the downstream tracks and clicks, then pull them back re-aligns the audio.  Only needed when showing close-ups.

    With the fusions, there is no need for a jib crane.  It's amazing.  The INsta360 X one is supposedly even better, but it won't work with my gopro remote, so for now I'm sticking with the fusions.

    They make a foam dart(drifter) body for the insta360 cameras, that allows them to be thrown over the audience and capture everyone and everything.  The dart body does not appear on the video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQf0-X1S2Q

    It's a totally new way to record. Since it records everything, you can even tie it on a string and swing it around.  You can thing pull any and as many 16:9 video clips from the 360 video that you want.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4qsUHSAWvU 

     This was the clip that made me decide to buy the fusions.  The Insta360 in the car wheel video has a scratched up water proof case on it.  The Fusion is waterproof without a case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6weD4EeyLVs

    The drawback.  Each fusion takes two SD cards.  One for front video and one for back video.  It does take a overclocked i9-9900k several days to stitch the 90 minute front and back 5.1k video files together into a 10.2k or 4k 360 video file.  Then I use INsta360 studio to pull my 16:9 video shots from that.  That goes pretty fast.  You can retake as many clips as you want from the same shot.  I then load these into PS for final editing.

     

     

    I would be interested to see what happens if you do try to load one of those monsters in MCE.

     

    This is some cool stuff!  Its a bit ahead of where I am now, but I can hope. (Who am I kidding?  I dream of doing stuff like this!!!)  Thats AWESOME footage.  PLEASE upload a link to a sample of your work. 

    Good luck uploading... this forum kinda lacks user friendly functionality.  But some cool people so far!  

    Thanks ACSScott!!   

     

     

    Well, I still have to try tech support. I sincerely hope that the MCE not working is somehow on my end. Its really the whole reason I got Pinnacle Studio. So a noob like me who doesnt know how to use the editor window can get a good looking multi camera video done.

     

     

    Until I get help from tech support..... 

    I came up with another try for a workaround, hopefully will get a chance to see if it works this weekend. Lets see if I can type this up legibly...

     

    (Same conditions as the last try - 4 cameras, 6 files each for a 90 min show)

     

    1) for each camera, take the 2nd - 6 files for camera one, put them all in the editor timeline, then export as a movie. Repeat for all cameras. Now I have all four camera angles into separate movies, all missing the first file.

    2) WHY? Well now I take the first file of each camera, and load it into MCE.  I know MCE will not have a problem with that small a load. Now I am in MCE, with the first file of all four cameras sync'd. 

    3) Now I take the 'movie' that is the first camera, minus the first file. I add this movie to the end of the first file in the timeline of the MCE for that camera.  Repeat for the other cameras. Edit entire set and finish...

     

    This will reduce the file number, but not the size. Be interesting to see if it works, as it could help reveal if it is a problem with the overall size of the project, or the total number of files in the project. 

  •  07-16-2019, 5:11 786427 in reply to 786367

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Oh well.... it did not work. I have been too busy to devote more time to it. :(   

     

    Kind of a bummer....the biggest reason I got Pinnacle was for MCE.  

     

    Still have to contact support...maybe they will have an answer. Will post back.  

  •  07-22-2019, 12:03 786498 in reply to 786427

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Well, stumbling along with tech support. 

     

    First few emails were spent updating video drivers....until I informed them I did not have a display problem, but the loading/freezing.

     

    Followed suggestion to put all files on local drive...didnt make a difference. Loaded up 32GB of files, fine. Tried to add more...froze.

     

    Waiting to hear back.  

  •  07-22-2019, 12:13 786499 in reply to 786498

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Checked email, did hear back. They wanted to be sure that there was sufficient open space on the drive. 

     

    OK, guess they had to ask.

     

     

  •  07-22-2019, 12:19 786501 in reply to 786499

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Thanks for the update!
  •  07-23-2019, 7:43 786518 in reply to 786501

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    No problem Tony. Its an adventure. I hope it benefits someone else down the road. 

     

     

     SO.....

    I responded back that indeed, before I did have space problems, but have since resolved them.

     

    So I got the "Thanks!  We will consider the matter solved then"  :O

     

    Informed support that the problem was NOT solved, or even addressed yet...

    Nice guy. He re-opened the ticket, and told me there was NO size limit on MCE.   YAAAAAY!!!

     

    Said that a fresh install on Pinnacle may be in order. It is on a 'dedicated' computer, so I might do a total factory reset of Win 10, re-install Pinnacle, and go from there.

     

    Someday, some way, this software is gonna work.  

  •  07-23-2019, 7:54 786519 in reply to 786518

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    We all keep hoping for that.......
  •  07-23-2019, 10:18 786521 in reply to 786519

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    While almost all complex software that I have used, worked 100%. Video editors fall into that.

    Yes, there is room for improvement in PS. Yes, there are "bugs". But I have to say, for the cost of the software and what it brings to the editing table, it's pretty good. I've used MCE several times for music videos and it's been 100% prefect. But those videos are under 5mins. Just like most of the videos I do are under 15min. But they range from the simple slide show to very complex multi-track videos. I've had problems with long form editing with playhead reaction to pressing play. But that's a topic for another thread.

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