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Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

Last post 13 hours, 17 minutes ago by Tony P. 46 replies.
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  •  06-30-2019, 9:33 786078

    Hmm [^o)] Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Multi Camera Editor is the single best feature in Pinnacle, IMO.   Checked out pluraleyes, but I had better results with MCE. 

     

    Its been about a year of frustration, but I think I finally have MCE working.  Imported files are ACVHD  ranging from 17-24Mbs. 1080x1920, no 4K.   Using Sony handcams (CX405/240 et al) , I found using the lower bitrates results in a 1440x1080 that somehow works out to be 16x9 aspect, but seemed to cause issued with pinnacle. My other 2 cams are NEX VG-20 also shooting ACVHD with great sound. 24Mbs 1080. 

     

    Material is live performance music, with sets running 60-180 min.  At ~17 min per file, it takes many files to get the show. Giving MCE more than 4 at any one time appears to freeze it, but it actually makes it SUPER slow, might as well be frozen. It does render the files , eventually, but does not allow for editing. Only way to close the program was task manager, and tell it YES to recovering files when you fire it back up. 

     

    Heres the workaround that seems to work last night....  :

    I have 3 cameras on a 1h15m set. 18 files total.  

    1) I get the first file of each camera loaded into MCE. I prefer the close shots in #2 and #4 for editing.  Once the first three are loaded, let them render. Once rendered, I use Audio to sync them. So far, the audio sync has worked very well for me. 

    2) Once the files are synced, check them and adjust alignment if necessary.

    (I get a soundboard feed, so once I check for synch, I generally take the audio source off 'all' and choose the best sounding camera. If I dont have soundboard, I will do a separate audio mix out of what I have, and insert it later in place of the soundboard. Individual sound levels are not adjustable in MCE making a good mix difficult to get there.) 

    3) OK, the first files for all 3 cams are synced.  Adding the rest of the files to the correct camera(s) keeps the sync!  :) 

    I used to add 2-3 files at a time to each camera, allowing them to render. As the project grows, it became sort of a russian roulette, seeing which group addition would freeze the program. adding the last few files I would sometimes just add one by one to avoid the crash.

    Now I use this method: After the sync, I add ONE file to each of the cameras each time. The same three files total, but one for each camera, not all three from one cam. Then I allowed them to render, then repeat  until all files were loaded. The program seems to like getting 3 at a time like this!! (Look forward to trying a 4-6 cam shoot with this method)

    Waiting for cameras to render I used to get a 'head start' on my editing by staring the multi cam edit in an earlier rendered area while the later files were still rendering. NO GO. Even loading the files '1 per cam' each time the program froze. LET THE PROGRAM RENDER before doing anything. I now structure my video editing around house chores. While it renders, I go do something else. Come back, the program is ready for more.  

     

    Using this method to load files into MCE seems to work around its limitations. In only 4 hours, i got it to load all the files, and got my editing done. All I have to do now is go back to EVERY SINGLE TRANSITION in MCE, click on it, then click on the 'A-B' transition button.  Select fade to change the transition from a hard break to a cross dissolve. Tech support told me there was no way to set crossfade as the default. Anyone else have a workaround for that? 

     

    After MCE is finally done, it imports to the timeline and I add titles, fades, etc.  I make sure my timeline settings are right, and export at 30p so it works on our TV.  

     

     

     

    I am wide open to advice and/or criticism for my methods. Anyone else doing music sets here?

    My youtube channel here to show what I am trying to do, pretty sure all of these are from Pinnacle 21, except a few of the early ones.  The audio on the latest, Bonnie Blue, is the best to date. Still working through sync issues before that..  I think this will link to my work. -   https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSKlZZSNTkkilovLMsIOpoA  

     

  •  06-30-2019, 10:57 786082 in reply to 786078

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    You mentioned nothing about using Proxy files....
  •  06-30-2019, 11:59 786084 in reply to 786082

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

     

    You are correct, because I know diddly* about them. My 'education' in PS21 was several 'Malik' videos, and starting to refer to the user guide as I learn enough to know what to ask. Otherwise hours of trial and error. 

     

    If you have any 'noob' level links for 'Proxy files' I will certainly explore them. But thank you for making me aware of them, I will research.  

     

    THANKS AGAIN!!! 

     

    *Just noticed you are posting from Poland. to know 'diddly' about something is to be basically ignorant of it.  I will be more careful with my 'slang' language here seeing it is international. 

     

     

     

     

  •  06-30-2019, 12:10 786085 in reply to 786082

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Ok, found the info on page 364 of the user guide - http://help.pinnaclesys.com/pinnacle/v21/main/en/user-guide/pinnaclestudio.pdf

     

    ""The main purpose of Smart Proxy is to provide a more fluid editing and previewing experience when working with large, high resolution video files.""

    Once I do get all the files loaded, and their rendering is done, I am very happy with the preview and editing. Smooth and easy.  It is the initial loading and rendering of the files that seems to bring the software to its knees. 

    I will explore this option more when I get home (at work now).  Thanks for the direction. 

  •  06-30-2019, 13:37 786088 in reply to 786084

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Volkemon:

    *Just noticed you are posting from Poland. to know 'diddly' about something is to be basically ignorant of it.  I will be more careful with my 'slang' language here seeing it is international. 

     

    Do not worry for Tony. As a New Yorker I guess his skills in English slang words are bigger than mine !

  •  06-30-2019, 13:55 786092 in reply to 786088

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Spent some time in Stony Brook when Dad taught at SUNY. :)   But thanks for the info. Almost out of Sunday work, and going to finish a set edit when I get home. Have to change all those transitions to crossfade....  Once that is 'in the can' I will have to educate myself on Proxy Files... 

     

    Thanks for the replies.  

  •  06-30-2019, 15:05 786094 in reply to 786092

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: PS22 MCE Settings.jpg

    Saby is correct... a NY'er for over 50+ years.

    You will have to wait for the proxies to be created before you start editing in MCE. There should be a green bar that progresses on the top of each clip as the proxies are being made. 

    Depending on your computer horsepower, you decide what resolution will give you a smooth MCE experience.

    This screen shot is from PS22 and is the same for PS21.


  •  06-30-2019, 15:57 786095 in reply to 786094

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    OK, back at home. 

     


    I was (mistakenly?) saying 'waiting for the files to render' when what i was waiting for was the proxies to be created. Proxy is set to anything over 720x480.

    I have learned to do *NOTHING* now until all bars are 'green' or it freezes. The program is a harsh teacher. 

     

    My computer should have enough 'horsepower', I got it recently just to run pinnacle.

     

    Dell XPS  with Win 10 Pro 64 bit

     i7-8700 cpu 3.20 GHz / 4.60GHz 'turbo'  ( I have seen 4.3 )

    6 core / 12 thread  

    32GB ram DDR4 2666 

    12Mb cache

    There is a graphics card, no idea what it is. 

     

    I see 'stats' in other signatures, I will update mine to help others help me. :)   

     

    Anything I am missing to be editing with Pinnacle?  

     

     

    ** And now back to the the tread in progress... 

     

    To clarify the original thread post, the problem was occurring when I was adding files to the MCE, either the initial setup, or adding them after the MCE has started.  If i attempted to add ALL files at once, the program freezes. 

    Opening the MCE with just the 'first' files needed to sync was a good workaround, it has not frozen at this stage since using this method. 

    After a successful 'opening', (wait for proxy creation, audio sync after) , if I add more than 3 files (~6GB) at once, it freezes. After the project total nears 20GB of file size (if it wasnt using proxys?) things slow, and actions have a delay. Adding 3 files after this is noted is guaranteed freeze. I reduce it to 2 files at a time, and sometimes have to only add 1 at a time. EACH time I add, I wait for the proxies to be created before adding more. Not doing that will freeze it too. Just loading a set was taking hours. 

    Latest idea was to add 3 files to the 'successfully opened and audio syncd' as usual, but to vary it. While in the window to add files, I add one file to 3 different cameras. SUCCESS! The program took this with no freezing, and adding more by 3's (after waiting for proxies...always waiting for the green...) I was able to add all the files without glitches, and editing was a joy. YES. Only took 2 hrs to load all the files also, a record. 

    Files are a bit of a hodgepodge, I am getting better on settings with my motley crew of cameras...   These three (Sony handycams CX420, CX440 and a VG-20) were putting out 1920x1080 17Mbs (about 17 min per file), 1920x1080 24Mbs (12:30 per file) and 1440x1080 12Mbs (about 26 min per file)  

    I did not realize at the time setting the bitrate to 12Mbs on some (all?) of my (cx series) cameras it goes from 1920 to 1440 x 1080...but stays 16:9. I was concerned about recording time left on the card, and unaware of the resolution change.  

    Working my way through 56 acts of a 5 day festival I covered, with anywhere from 1 to 5 cameras on an act. Usually 3-4. Soundboard for most of them.  Plenty of things to practice with!  

     

     

     

     

     

  •  06-30-2019, 16:17 786098 in reply to 786094

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Looking at your screenshot Tony - 


    If the selection is NOT set to 'all cameras' it wont audio sync using all? I was under the impression that the button controlled only the playback. 

    Also thought they are all included in sync unless de-selected by clicking on the logo to the right of the 'camera 1' , 'camera 2' etc. 

     

     

    I do not understand the arrows pointing to the files... 

     

    But THANK YOU for the help.  

  •  07-01-2019, 5:33 786103 in reply to 786098

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    The arrows are pointing to the green bar at the top of each clip. You have to wait until they finish rendering before starting the multicam project.

    If you are not syncing audio, you can still do the MC edit. 

    The files do not automatically sync until you click on the Sync circle and choose what they are going to sync up to. What camera or audio source. You can still use the MCE without syncing up the audio.

    When I have done some music videos, I have everything sync up to the Audio. 

    How many files (and sizes) do you work with when using the MCE?

     

  •  07-01-2019, 6:38 786104 in reply to 786103

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Good Morning (Here...) Tony!  

    You really posting from Poland? 

     

    This project had about ~10 files 2GB each.  (going on memory here... at work again)   So 20Gb total.  all video, I add the final audio later. One of the smaller sets. Some of the big ones can have 40+ Gb source files. 

     

    OK on the arrows, I am VERY familiar with waiting for the rendering lines to turn green. It is correct to use the term 'render' for the proxy generating?

     

     

    ""The files do not automatically sync until you click on the Sync circle and choose what they are going to sync up to. What camera or audio source."" 

    I knew that one had to click on the 'sync' button to start the sync.   "choose what they sync to" means chose whether they sync to a marker or audio.   Can one also specify a 'master' audio track that all the others sync to? Or do they just sync to all? (Same result either way, I guess, except with a 'master' you could establish that as a start point maybe... dunno... )

     

    Back when I used to load ALL the files then sync, there was so much info it took ages, and often did not find matches.  Now that I only load the 'beginning' file to a camera, and know that the same audio event is occurring on all the clips, the audio sync has been working 100%. .

    Before, when adding 'too much' at one time, I would have it show the waveforms and sync it up manually. The matches would be there, but maybe the large amount of data confused the software, or had too many partial matches due to the repetitive nature of the music. 

     

     

    Back in the main editor window,  USUALLY I export the MCE product to make it a .mp4. The edit that and the final sound, add titles, etc.   This time, I was able to use the MCE product as imported, and the soundboard was easy to match up!!  Pleasant change. 

     

    I am wondering if I got an update. The video computer is not generally comnnected to the internet, but was for a while last week. How do I check what version I have? 

     

    Last 2 nights project:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvgNIHs_CDw  The best sound I have had in a video yet. Soundboard up 2dB, camera sound down -14dB. 

     

     

    Thanks for the help. The user guide is kinda vague, and tech support...well.. its inexpensive software.  Nothing better than real users. 

  •  07-01-2019, 7:06 786105 in reply to 786104

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Yes, really posting from Poland! It's always an adventure for me here.

    Proxy generating is good enough term.

    Have you monitored your system resources (task manager) while editing?

     As for syncing up the audio, you can choose which camera or audio file you want things to sync up to. When I do music videos, I'll have the master audio track. Then while shooting, I have the music playing in the background, the singer is lip syncing and I can speak and direct the singer to which camera to go to and what to do. Then in post, I sync the videos up to the master audio track. Works every time. Then once the MCE is done, I'll open things up again in the editor to further do whatever video correcting, etc that I have to do. But then, I don't work with gigs of video files. The singer I work with records a studio master track and that is what everything is synced to. 

    Since you recorded the entire show, I would just do one song at a time, have some "b" roll to go between the songs (like the crowd clapping, dancing and cheering) brought in while the song ends to bring up the next song, which would be another MCE project.

    Not a bad job of editing and the musicians are really good!

     

  •  07-01-2019, 7:28 786108 in reply to 786105

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Thank you Sir! 

    I do the entire set in one piece per musician request. If they want 'singles' I will spit them up.

     

    I do monitor system resources often, trying to diagnose problems. During proxy generating, it will often go to 99%. Once done, never over 10% no matter what I am asking it to do.

    The program never uses more than 4Gb of ram. Seems odd to me, glad I didnt spring for the 64Gb of ram. I was told that the program may not be compiled as a 64 bit, and thats why it only uses 4gb. I have no idea , really. :)

     

    In MCE, there is no provision for changing audio level in the tracks, so I never use the final audio there. I sync it up manually in editor after, where I can change levels.

     

    The festival scene here is kinda small, and the 'gaps' between songs are fun for people spotting. Dont think I want to add clapping or 'fake' crowd noise for a whole set. BUT...for a single, sure!   

     

    ANY comments on editing welcome. I am MUCH more of an audio person, learning video cause its what people want. :)  

  •  07-01-2019, 8:00 786109 in reply to 786108

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    I was referring to the "singles" as being easier to edit. You can then put them all together on the timeline for a final export.

    As for audio levels, you do know that once you place the MCE clip on the timeline, you can then open it up and another editor appears where you can do just that.... adjust the audio. With MCE on main timeline, double left mouse click and the editor opens.

    Pinnacle is a 64bit program. I don't know if it was specifically written to be a 64bit program, or recompiled 32bit to 64bit. 

    The "b" roll is there for showing the crowd reaction and can be used to transition from one song to another. It isn't "fake" since it's from the actual event. 

     

  •  07-01-2019, 8:25 786112 in reply to 786109

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Tony P:

    I was referring to the "singles" as being easier to edit. You can then put them all together on the timeline for a final export.

             REPLY-  Once they load, I have NO problem editing in MCE.  (Unless i dont wait for the green.....) It is no problem doing the set as a whole, after things load.  

    As for audio levels, you do know that once you place the MCE clip on the timeline, you can then open it up and another editor appears where you can do just that.... adjust the audio. With MCE on main timeline, double left mouse click and the editor opens.

             REPLY -   I have seen that editor, and I had NO idea how to work it. LOL   Still a nooooooobie!  

    Pinnacle is a 64bit program. I don't know if it was specifically written to be a 64bit program, or recompiled 32bit to 64bit. 

    The "b" roll is there for showing the crowd reaction and can be used to transition from one song to another. It isn't "fake" since it's from the actual event. 

             REPLY - Yes, I have considered having a 'crowd camera' for that purpose..  Had my hands full running all the cameras I had up already. THANK GOD for my wife's help, otherwise it would have been incomplete.  This festival I am working now was a first for this setup: 

    (2) light trees used as camera trees, with (2) motorized pan/tilts on each and two fixed cameras on each. The two moving cams are monitored by (2) 24" monitors on the bottom of each tree.   There was another smaller stage, I had one camera for wed and thu, two for fri/sat/sun.  SO... adding crowd cams is cool, but more footage. I got about 1.25Tb of raw video from the festival as it was. 

     

     

    For a 'graphic arts' forum, this chat sorta lacks...hope the 'REPLY format above makes sense.

     

    and again, THANKS for the help. Hope your afternoon is going well!  

  •  07-01-2019, 8:40 786114 in reply to 786112

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    I was referring to the "singles" as being easier to edit. You can then put them all together on the timeline for a final export.

             REPLY-  Once they load, I have NO problem editing in MCE.  (Unless i dont wait for the green.....) It is no problem doing the set as a whole, after things load. 

    Glad to hear about your success with MCE. I have done just singles, but in event recording, always had "b" roll of the audience to add. 

    As for audio levels, you do know that once you place the MCE clip on the timeline, you can then open it up and another editor appears where you can do just that.... adjust the audio. With MCE on main timeline, double left mouse click and the editor opens.

             REPLY -   I have seen that editor, and I had NO idea how to work it. LOL   Still a nooooooobie! 

    We are always learning. When you have the MCE clip on the timeline and double left click on it, it opens up another occurrence  of the editor where you can then do further editing of the MCE clip. You can add effects, color correct, adjust audio. Just about everything you can do on the timeline in the "main" editing window, you can do in this one.

    The "b" roll is there for showing the crowd reaction and can be used to transition from one song to another. It isn't "fake" since it's from the actual event. 

             REPLY - Yes, I have considered having a 'crowd camera' for that purpose..  Had my hands full running all the cameras I had up already. THANK GOD for my wife's help, otherwise it would have been incomplete.  This festival I am working now was a first for this setup: 

    (2) light trees used as camera trees, with (2) motorized pan/tilts on each and two fixed cameras on each. The two moving cams are monitored by (2) 24" monitors on the bottom of each tree.   There was another smaller stage, I had one camera for wed and thu, two for fri/sat/sun.  SO... adding crowd cams is cool, but more footage. I got about 1.25Tb of raw video from the festival as it was.

    When doing a more than one camera shoot (unless it's a wedding), I need others to watch and monitor the cameras. With today's cellphones and bluetooth ear pieces, it's easy to communicate with other camera operators. Say you were going on stage to shoot the drummer or keyboard artist, the other cameras can be positioned to the guitarist, bass player, etc... giving you time to get off stage and out of the video. That would be fixed in post. But I understand doing everything basically by yourself. Heck, I'm amazed when I was shooting SVHS and did a/b roll with Amiga/Toaster how everything worked out great.   

    For a 'graphic arts' forum, this chat sorta lacks...hope the 'REPLY format above makes sense.

    and again, THANKS for the help. Hope your afternoon is going well! 

    Yes, the forum software is a little long in tooth so to speak. But I'm used to it and know most of the codes to add hot links, quote, etc...


  •  07-01-2019, 11:05 786117 in reply to 786114

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Hm..... 

    BOLD test  

    does color work?

    [scroll] Scrolling work? [/scroll]

    italics?  

    Sleep strikeout [/s] 

    underline?


    HUGE FONTS??

     

    Just checking to see what works. 'Preview' does not seem to work here either.. all it shows is the reference post I am replying to, and none of my note. 

     

    But back to the thread...   

     

    I will have to get a pic of my rig on here. It makes it so I can get all but the 'reverse' shots from one place.

     

    Tonight I hope to load a fresh set on MCE and see if it works again with my loading method.

     

    HUGE thanks Tony for taking the time to guide me.  I am really hoping that my post production time can be cut to less than 6:1. 

  •  07-01-2019, 14:58 786123 in reply to 786117

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Glad you are sorting through things.

    Preview in the forum does work for me, but doesn't show screenshots.

    As for editing time, it depends on the project and it's complexity. Some go by rather quickly (6:1), while others, 20:1. 20 minutes editing for 1 minute of video. 

  •  07-01-2019, 16:00 786127 in reply to 786117

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Volkemon:

    does color work?


    Yes it does

    The correct syntax is (font color="red")Yes it does(/font) 
    Replace ( ) by < >

    Volkemon:
     

    HUGE FONTS??


    Yes it does

    Correct syntax is (font size="30")Yes it does!(/font)   with < > instead of ( )


  •  07-01-2019, 17:24 786128 in reply to 786127

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Merci beaucoup! 

    I will spare you my Quebecois 'french' ;)  

    @Tony - 

     

    Think I have some understanding of your advice to do the MCE track by track..   I found it loaded 38GB of files fine, but then adding 4 more files, 8GB, freeze. :( 

     

    maybe I have to have a ~32Gb limit per MCE and combine the parts later. 

     

    Going to try the usual recovery first, and then try adding 2 files / 4GB at a time... maybe save this set. 

     

    Looks like ~58 Gb total for all the cameras, for this set. Even with proxys, am I insane to ask this of the software? 

    Or can proxys be set very 'low resolution' (?) to allow editing? I can live with a low res image in editing. 

     

     Thanks!!!

  •  07-02-2019, 8:09 786134 in reply to 786128

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    I have no idea of what the file size limit is with Pinnacle. Most of what I do is usually under 15 minutes. Mostly under 10 min.  The projects I work on can be very complex to basic editing.

    Someone with a bigger brain than me might be able to answer this. 

    As for the proxies created in MCE, they are created IF your files exceed the setting limit you decided on in the Settings. What resolution they are, again, I do not know. 

  •  07-02-2019, 10:53 786139 in reply to 786134

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: PS21 MCE SS1.jpg

    Thanks for helping Tony!  You had me realize a few things i did not before. 

    Recovering the MCE project was a fail. It wouldnt reload from the editor or open in MCE without freezing.

    So...started again. At least most of the proxies are done! I will report back on how division/reuniting the set for MCE works! 

     

    Not sure how attachments appear here, so hard to caption them. Screenshot of MCE shows the last file creating a proxy. After this I tried to add more...and freeze. Hard freeze - even on reloading, it would fail. 

     

    LOL... and looks like one attachment per post. ;)  


  •  07-02-2019, 11:03 786140 in reply to 786139

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: DSC_2996z.jpg

    Here is a screenshot i had to take with a camera. I was 'hovering' over the Pinnacle icon in the start bar, and then when the small preview image appeared, moved the cursor to hover over that image. The screen previewed, and the preview was the moment things froze. The menu to add files is up, and the files I was attempting to add are shown. The computer would not let me do a screenshot using crtl-print screen when it was showing the preview, and I thought it was interesting that it had the 'moment of death' on it. 

     

     


  •  07-02-2019, 11:15 786141 in reply to 786140

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: DSC_2741z.jpg

    And since there is only one attachment per post....

     Here is a shot that shows two of rigs during morning setup. The crowd moves stage to stage, and there is 5 min breaks between allowing me to move back and forth. I use the yellow cart to haul all the stuff to camp. 

    Eagle eyed people may notice only one pan/tilt on the far rig. I had a brand new one fail... and the ebay seller a) let me keep the broken one and b) issued a full refund, which i used to buy another from them. Bescor 101. I found the defect after taking the broken one apart, and it is now on standby duty.  THANKS  downtownphoto - https://www.ebay.com/usr/downtownphoto?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2754    I am a happy customer!! (and i am NOT affiliated with them, just a buyer from them)

     

     


  •  07-02-2019, 11:20 786142 in reply to 786141

    Re: Getting MCE to work in Pinnacle 21 Ultimate

    Attachment: DSC_2760z.jpg

    Here is a shot during taping. I keep the cameras high and monitor low to not obstruct views. ( I know i make a good door, not window) This was an 'open set', and i really believe that I should be there to capture the show, not be the show. I go to some effort to do so.   (MANY people enjoyed watching my monitors while they sat, however. :) )

     

     

     


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