I can import files from this camera but Liquid needs to render them and the playback is choppy.

From reading on DVinfo I understood that Cineform Neoscene would convert the 5D II files to a more usable format. But when I do this I just get a green screen with audio.

I'd be grateful if anyone who has experience of or an understanding of the issues could give me some guidance. 

I don't need to edit in the native 5D II resolution. My interest in the camera is in the low-light performance, interchangeable lenses and depth of field control. I'm quite happy editing in HDV.

This is what the camera outputs:

1920 x 1080 (16:9) Quicktime 1080p H.264; 38.6 Mbits/sec

ps (comment added later)

On reading round this forum further I am wondering if I should be using Smetvid's free Liquid tool to do this?

I'm taking a shot...it's possible that you need an update to your quicktime codecs....are you using the latest Avid 7.2?   An easy fix would be to convert the Quicktime files to AVI as a workaround.

Thanks for responding Jay.

As far as I know it is the latest copy of Liquid.

However there is another weird thing about this camera. It's framerate is 29.something fps. As I'm Pal my timeline is 25 fps and of course Liquid is having to change the original file. I have only just worked this out. 

Which is fine except that it is taking 12 minutes to convert 3 seconds.

What I need to find is a quick way of converting Quicktime to AVI and from the camera's framerate to 25 fps.

Cineform seems to convert to it's own version of AVI that doesn't work with Liquid.

Richard Gooderick:

However there is another weird thing about this camera. It's framerate is 29.something fps. As I'm Pal my timeline is 25 fps and of course Liquid is having to change the original file.

Which is fine except that it is taking 12 minutes to convert 3 seconds.

Seems like you have got yourself an Ntsc cam with framerate 29,97 / sec, you should begin with having your project properties set to ntsc, Liquid is able to convert it to pal later using timewarp.

Thank you Tomas

From reading on the web people seem to be having all sort of problems editing with this camera. There is only the one version and it outputs at this framerate.

I tried an NTSC timeline and it still wanted to render forever, the same as a PAL timeline.

I have tried all sorts of conversions using some software called mpeg streamclip. Everything needed rendering on the Liquid timeline until I tried exporting as Apple Motion jpeg into an NTSC timeline at 30 fps. 

I have been able to edit this successfully and am at this moment converting it for uploading to the web. 

This may not be the best workflow for this camera and Liquid but it seems to be working so far. Finger crossed.

BTW if you have not yet seen the footage that this camera produces it is worth checking it out. It's amazing for the money.

I'm thinking that maybe the Liquid version of Quicktime is now out of date.

If I try to import the file that that the camera produces without any conversion Liquid does not give any frame size in when I go into properties. It shows gobbledegook.

I don't think there is any way to update Liquid to the current version of Quicktime?

Richard Gooderick:

If I try to import the file that that the camera produces without any conversion Liquid does not give any frame size in when I go into properties. It shows gobbledegook.

Yes, i think that this comment from you will summarize it all.

" From reading on the web people seem to be having all sort of problems editing with this camera. "

This is not a cam that can be used together with Liquid, especially not if you want to work in Pal, you might be able to find an app that will convert your media to something that Liquid can use, but it will still be Ntsc

To be fair to the camera, it is a still camera that happens to do pretty amazing video.

You don't seem to be familiar with it. It's probably the hottest camera around at the moment. The quality is approaching a Red, for a lot less money.

That's why people are using it even though it's not straight forward to do so.

For example it doesn't do decent audio either. You have to record separate sound or use a clunky adaptor and you can only do this because a guy called Tramm Hudson has written a hack that makes the camera produce audio level metering in the LCD display (and zebras too, by the way).

It's not so easy but it can be made to work with PAL if you are using FCP (which I really don't want to have to do).

See this tutorial for information that FCP workflow (it's 24p but I understand that the workflow for 25p is the same):

http://philipbloom.co.uk/tutorials/how-to-convert-canon-5dmk2-footage-from-30p-to-24p/

Why go to all this trouble? Because if you want to move with the times and use a video camera that gives you a film aesthetic at an affordable price this is the way to go.

If Liquid can't work with the 5D then I suppose that time has caught up with Liquid and it is becoming truly obsolete.

A great shame. I am a huge fan of Liquid. I was hoping it would continue to do the job until nextgen appears. But it seems that the world is moving on more quickly than that and is leaving Liquid behind.

Someone please tell me this isn't so.

.

BTW yesterday I edited some footage using the workflow described above and uploaded it to Vimeo.

It took 5 x realtime to convert using mpeg streamclip. I output it as apple motion jpeg and imported it into an ntsc timeline in Liquid.

It has worked out OK except that the length of the audio track ended up longer than the video track, so there is a problem here eg the L cut in the audio track over the oil lamp clip was simply because that is how much longer the audio track ended up being after conversion and I decided to use it the way it is.

This footage is nothing special. It was shot at random and is thrown together. I'm not pretending that it shows the potential of the camera. It was shot in automatic because I still haven't learned how to use the camera and have not installed the Magic Lantern firmware hack yet.

I think that Vimeo converts to 25p and had heard bad things about using 30p source footage. I wasn't expecting good results but it seems to have worked out OK.

http://www.vimeo.com/6269163

password is

carminowe

Richard Gooderick:

To be fair to the camera, it is a still camera that happens to do pretty amazing video.

You don't seem to be familiar with it. It's probably the hottest camera around at the moment. The quality is approaching a Red, for a lot less money.

Well, it is a still cam, with possibilities to shoot video, we have seen those for at least 10 years.

Regarding the still photos, they seem to be of a very high quality, your compare with the Red cam might be correct, unfortunately, those stills aren´t placed after eachother when shooting video, the stills used for video are of a much lower resolution, reading the specs for the cam tells me that the video file is an Avchd file and that max storing size is 29 minutes and 59 secs for a 4 gig clip, that is 8 gigs per hour or about 60% of a standard hdv video cam.

Does this mean that the picture quality is lower resolution than HDV? I have read that the actual technical quality is no better than my Canon XHA1 so maybe this is the case?

It does capture at 1920 x 1080 to a 35mm size chip (if I understand it correctly).

If you are making stuff for the web the absolute definition is not so important. What the camera does offer is interchangeable lenses, good low-light performance (eg the oil lamp in the film clip above), a wide dynamic range  and good control of depth of field.

Maybe you could call it a Red for the web ;-) 

I'm going to do some tests recording voice to camera and see if it losing synch. If that works then I think that Liquid can handle it as well as any of the other NLEs.

BTW the max recording time for the camera to compact flash card is about 12 mins for each shot apparently. So that's another drawback that appears to have been built-in by the manufacturer.

Since launching the camera Canon has upgraded the firmware to give better control of the video function (they seem to have been taken aback by the level of interest in the camera amongst film makers). There is a rumour that it may get 25p as a firmware upgrade in the Autumn. There doesn't seem to be any technical reason why it can't do that.

 

Richard Gooderick:

Does this mean that the picture quality is lower resolution than HDV? I have read that the actual technical quality is no better than my Canon XHA1 so maybe this is the case?

It does capture at 1920 x 1080 to a 35mm size chip (if I understand it correctly).

Well, technically it should be the same resolution, it is the same chip that are receiving the signals, the prob is that the still cam is encoding the signals using a codec, if you could connect a computer directly to the still cam and capture the incoming signals directly into your computer as uncompressed signals it might be possible to use all the quality, the prob is that an uncompressed full raster Hd file will run at about 1300 mbps, there are no, or very few, systems that can handle uncompressed HD this way, the signals have to be encoded in some way. 

Thanks. I read somewhere, I think, that some of the horizontal lines are dropped.

I have been recommended TMPG by a friend and am have just recorded a 12 minute sequence voice to camera.

Am going to transcode using this software, probably to 720p, and see what the quality is like, whether the sound stays in synch and whether Liquid can handle it without further rendering. I will report back.

At the risk of talking to myself (you never know there may be someone else with Liquid and a Canon 5D mark 2) mpeg streamclip produced out-of-synch video over a 14 minute clip (the maximum you can record with the camera in one shot).

TMPG produced in-synch video at 25p over the same duration. The bad news is that it costs $100 and takes 5 times realtime to convert the 5D files. It's probably worth the money though.

That's the best solution I have found for editing this camera in Liquid. I hope this information helps somebody else.

If anyone finds a better way please let me know.

A quote from Digital Films, a blog by Oliver Peters:

'Posting footage from the 5Dmk2 is relatively easy, but you have to take the right steps, depending on what you want to end up with. The movie files recorded by the camera are QuickTime files using the H264 codec, so any Mac or PC QuickTime-compatible application can deal with the files. They are a true 30fps, so you can choose to work natively in 30fps (FCP) or first convert them to 29.97fps (for FCP or Avid). That speed change is minor, so there are no significant sync or pitch issues with the onboard audio. If you opt to edit with Media Composer, simply import the camera movies into a 29.97 project, using the RGB import settings and the result will be standard Avid media files.'

It seems that Media Composer can import the files from this camera without problem but that Liquid can't.

Does anyone on this forum know if this is correct please?

That is probably true. Media Composer is a Quicktime based application and Liquid is not. Further, Liquid does not support the H264 codec even if you have a copy of QT on your system that does. So, Liquid will not support these files.

Many thanks for clarifying the issue.

Do you know of any way that I can use the files with Liquid or do I need to buy and learn Media Composer?

I have been using TMPG to convert the files with some success but the final output eg to Vimeo, is disappointing. Presumably because the files are undergoing too many conversions in the process.

On another forum (HV20.com), Laval (Regis) shoots with the 5D II and has them posted on vimeo and youtube.  Some very good stuff, perhaps you can collaborate...

 www.vimeo.com/rhervag shoots Canon FD primes on 5Dmk2 & HV20/Handy35 | L'Aigle Classic, Glidetrack, 2*SlikPRO, EI-717 | 2*ATR35s, Rode videomic & stereomic

His stuff is worth a look just for the fun of it...

Thanks Tim. Some beautiful films indeed.

And some useful tips eg best framerates for shooting under artificial light in Europe..

But does he use Liquid ??

:-)

mjolnarn:

Richard Gooderick:

To be fair to the camera, it is a still camera that happens to do pretty amazing video.

You don't seem to be familiar with it. It's probably the hottest camera around at the moment. The quality is approaching a Red, for a lot less money.

Well, it is a still cam, with possibilities to shoot video, we have seen those for at least 10 years.

Regarding the still photos, they seem to be of a very high quality, your compare with the Red cam might be correct, unfortunately, those stills aren´t placed after eachother when shooting video, the stills used for video are of a much lower resolution, reading the specs for the cam tells me that the video file is an Avchd file and that max storing size is 29 minutes and 59 secs for a 4 gig clip, that is 8 gigs per hour or about 60% of a standard hdv video cam.

Just for the record. The camera outputs at two different resolutions and the reference above is to the lower resolution. A 4 gig file in high resolution gives around 12 minutes recording duration.

If anyone is interested here is a link to Philip Bloom's blog posting about it being used for HD production on a US network television.

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/09/29/saturday-night-live-use-canon-7d-and-5d/

I have not been able to find any information on the best way to transcode the files for use in Liquid.

Here's an update for anyone who is thinking of using the Canon 5D Mark 2 with Liquid.

1 Apparently Studio will handle the native files. So this is a way to convert files for use in Liquid.

2 Canon have just announced that they will make a free software upgrade available in the first half of 2010 that will give the camera 24p and 25p in addition to the existing 30p. So it won't be necessary to convert the frame rate if you want to mix footage on the same timeline as, for instance, a PAL Canon XH A1.

If you regarded this camera as an NTSC camera when it only did 30p I suppose this means that it is now a PAL camera as well.

3 If you are confused by references to this camera as a still camera that is because it came from the still camera world. The current model is often called a hybrid DSLR because it shoots very good video too. 

Here's a short film I have just posted, shot with the 5D Mark 2 and edited in Liquid (it replaces a password-protected rough cut that I posted two weeks ago):

http://www.vimeo.com/6917725

 

Video looks good from that camera!

Richard, I have a Canon 7D and have been playing around with it some. Yes, Liquid can not work with the H264 video from either of these cameras. What can though is Studio 14. I upgraded from Studio 12 to 14 and I can open the video from the 7D fine. I drop a series of files onto a Studio timeline and export them using a custom high bitrate MPEG2 setup. The video looks great and Liquid edits the exported video perfectly.

If you get Studio as an upgrade its worth the price to convert H264 files to a Liquid compatible format and to get the motion titler to boot.  

Thanks Chris. Very useful.

It seems that I could have saved myself some money by buying Studio 14 rather than TMPG if I had learned this when I first asked in this forum. Pinnacle would have got a sale out of me too.

Odd too that I found this out in the first instance from another bulletin board.

I don't have Studio so presumably I can't upgrade, I have to buy Studio 14?

It never rains, but it pours.

I've bought  Studio 14 but it hangs on start-up. I have removed and reinstalled the programme but it still hangs.

I came across a thread on the Studio discussion board describing a similar problem and speculating that Studio would clash with Liquid if installed on the same machine. The thread is unresolved.

I've got two hours of footage that I want to start editing. I've written to the Avid helpline but if anyone has any thoughts on whether or not Liquid is clashing with Studio I'd love to hear them.

If I can open up the files in Studio, play them and only export the parts I want to Liquid this will save a huge amount of time.