JKoch:

Most who plea for DD 5.1 simply want Studio to import the native 5 channels their camcorders capture, without compressing it to 2 channels.  Little 5-channel editing would be relevant.  The actual amount of channel separation is rather low, since the mics are close and usually face upwards, but it might help preserve at least a bit of 3-D effect.

One can already fabricate some DD 5.1 within Studio by doodling with the balance and fade features of the native, overlay, sound, or effects audio tracks.  It may not be discrete control over five separate tracks, but the net effect can be nearly the same.  You'd seldom need to break up each track of each video or audio component (5x4?), which could get rather complicated. 

Real multi-track sound might be great under controled studio situations.  In usual practice, however, most sound is either very frontal (loud speakers), banged up and distorted by echoes, constrained by the absence of a close-up mic, infused with noisy ambient racket, or utterly overwhelmed by wind.

I realize this might be a rare situation, but I have a case where I would love to separate one 5.1 channel from the others.

You can read (and hopefully respond to) my full post in this thread.

My camera has "5.1 surround sound" capability, and as JKoch pointed out, you have to wonder about the actual quality and value of that separation.  However, I also have a wireless microphone attachment that can operate in two modes:

• As the sole source, in which case you are recording in mono
• As the "center channel" for 5.1 surround sound

I recently used the wireless mic for the center channel, so I have great separation of that from the other audio channels, and would like to be able to separate it.

This might not happen enough to justify Studio being able to do it, but it sure would be great if you could.  It would be nice to able to mute (or lower the volume) on the other 4 channels and let the center channel be my sole (or majority) source for audio.

 

What you're asking can at present be done with other programs.... but not studio. There are ways around it, like using a converter to convert your AC3 to wav and then import, but even then studio operates in terms of stereo channels, not to mention that EACH clip would have to be converted.

 The 5.1 cams are recognized for more that just the surround sound capacity. The quality of the sound is better as well. The SR11 5.1 audio operates at 48Khz, with a bitrate of 448Kbps which is quite equal to that of a high quality dvd. Separation is as one would expect given the central location of the mic pack, but still you CAN hear directional differences in the sound. The cam operators voice for example will sound louder on the rear speakers than the front. People seem to think that you need mics off in the far corners of a room (for example) for 5.1 surround, which isn't necessarily true. We have 2 ears (not 5 or 6) separated by a fairly small distance and we can hear front to back, left to right quite well.

Of course this is all lost with studio's downmixing to stereo.

Jack Bellford:

The SR11 5.1 audio operates at 48Khz, with a bitrate of 448Kbps which is quite equal to that of a high quality dvd.  

"CD quality" or "HQ DVD quality" probably has more to do with the use of mics closely placed to the singers, actors, or speakers.   Hollywood films seldom rely on mics more than a few feet from the characters, whether on-location or voiced-over.  No matter how high the capture rate or mic sensitivity, sound pick-up from a greater distances is liable to be distorted.  Even an accoustically perfect concert hall, that sounds great to the human ear, will sound poor from a balcony mic.  The ear and brain have very advanced sound separation faculties that defy mics, which have to be placed close to an instrument or singer in order to replicate anything like the "natural" separation.  Any hard-of-hearing person who relies on a hearing aid or implant, and cannot understand conversations in noisey rooms, knows exactly what this means.

Jack Bellford:

 People seem to think that you need mics off in the far corners of a room (for example) for 5.1 surround, ... 

Extreme separation would probably worsen the sound quality, due to echoes and the bit of time sound requires to travel even 50'.  However, you sure can't get optimum capture of an instrumental solo, an actor in a play, or a singer unless one mic is fairly close.  Electric amplification sometimes helps attain this for the live audience, but can still yield a relatively "flat" result if all the loudspeakers are set at one spot and echoes  and ambient distortions wreck it by the time it reaches your mic(s).  Furthermore, sometimes amateurish electronic amplification features no separation or highlights at all or maximizes everything in a sort of boom-box way.

Jack Bellford:

 We have 2 ears (not 5 or 6) separated by a fairly small distance

2 ears, but complemented by something in our inner ear and brain that makes the spatial and tonal separation much better.  No, it's not Bose.  It probably originated when our ancestors had to have an acute sense of the location of an approaching predator in dark or densely foliated settings, plus the need to identify (and keep safe distance from) the bullying alpha-male voices in the otherwise incoherent chatter of the herd, harem, or tribe.  Furthermore, the dense bone and (underutilized, often entirely dormant) fatty gray tissue that separates the two ears also separates the two primary channels.

Huh-ray, Huh-ray, Huh-ray.  Step right up and be the first.  Buy a S12.1 Ultimate upgrade now cheap.  Offer ends June 25.  Slowpokes will lose a golden opportunity and get no choice but to wait 3 weeks and buy Studio 13.

JKoch:

Extreme separation would probably worsen the sound quality, due to echoes and the bit of time sound requires to travel even 50'.

That more or less (within reason) is what 5.1 sound is all about. When some one speaks in a room you don't hear that sound from one direction only, but from a number of different directions. Getting sound from one direction only is a bit unrealistic.

the dense bone and (underutilized, often entirely dormant) fatty gray tissue that separates the two ears also separates the two primary channels.

Actually it has more to do with the fact that the ear canals are 180 degrees apart from one another. The physical mass of dense bone and gray matter probably confuse things if nothing else. Subwoofers work because the human ear has trouble placing a direction on lower frequencies. Part of that reason is that the vibrations from lower frequencies act on the bone masses within your head while both ears are physically connected to the same bone mass. Mid and higher frequencies on the other hand are very directional and the tones/frequencies can change drastically in sound pressure simply by tilting your head just a bit in anoither direction. Your brain uses this bit of physics in calculating the difference in frequencies between the 2 ears (along with the speed of sound itself), in detecting direction.

JKoch:

wait 3 weeks and buy Studio 13.

Or three months. Who knows? Nobody is telling us anything  

Jack Bellford:

JKoch:

Getting sound from one direction only is a bit unrealistic.

A close proximity mic at low sensitivity setting nearly attains that.  Recording studios often isolate individual instruments or singers in chambers,  Some day, I'd like to try shotgun mics of the sort birdwatchers use, but fear the pointed barrel might confuse people and get me in trouble.

PCLEUSB2_fan:

JKoch:

wait 3 weeks and buy Studio 13.

Or three months. Who knows? Nobody is telling us anything  

Some estimate 3 months, so that the new version rolls out compatible with Windows 7 release 1.1.  Meanwhile, I just can't fathom what Avid CEO Greenfield will tell sharholders about prospects for the video editing software business, if 2-QTR-09 results are still bleak and he can't even point to a new product to pull the battered revenue wagon out of a rut.  That would be in August.  Finally, many new cameras, phone-cameras, or videocams now going on sale use formats Studio doesn't hack well.  The absence of a S12 patch to bring support up to date is frustrating, and another three month wait is too long.  If NextGen will cost users another $150 to replicate the utilities of S12 U with plug-ins, or up to $500 to support fancy, pro features, one might as well buy a competing product that already does those things.

JKoch:

Some estimate 3 months, so that the new version rolls out compatible with Windows 7 release 1.1.  Meanwhile, I just can't fathom what Avid CEO Greenfield will tell sharholders about prospects for the video editing software business, if 2-QTR-09 results are still bleak and he can't even point to a new product to pull the battered revenue wagon out of a rut.  That would be in August.  Finally, many new cameras, phone-cameras, or videocams now going on sale use formats Studio doesn't hack well.  The absence of a S12 patch to bring support up to date is frustrating, and another three month wait is too long.  If NextGen will cost users another $150 to replicate the utilities of S12 U with plug-ins, or up to $500 to support fancy, pro features, one might as well buy a competing product that already does those things.

For the large part, I agree with you. I have looked at other products already. But I can wait. While Studio works slow even on "fast" machines with the wonderful new HD format, time is not of the essence for me at the moment. I will wait to see what NextGen or Studio will be like and make my decision then. I would really hate to have to spend twice.

I would like Next Gen to be 4GB-worry-free.

For the most part I too agree with user JKoch.  However, I would like to add that, in my opinion, they have to know that if Studio 13 doesn't resolve all the issues that users have been complaining about since version 9, and add more video & audio tracks and features that some of the other competitors have in the currently, they will lose their Market.

With the ability now to download the competitors software and evaluate for 30 days puts us in a better position to make an informed decision. To switch or not to switch, that is the question.

A lot of the users in the forum have been loyal customers to Pinnacle, but due to the lack of customer support and quickness of report bug fixes, I see a change coming.  The problem is, Pinnacle has not been loyal to their customers.

Most of the competitors software offer a lot of cool features and intergrate very nicely with 3rd party applications and Adobe CS4.  Which allow the editors to get very creative.  Pinnacle mostly has work arounds.  So I think most of use will sit back this time and see what v13 has to offer and the upgrade price.  They better hope their price isn't anything close to any special or regular price of their competitors and they haven't fixed their bugs or the features aren't that exciting, I'm done with them.

And that's too bad.  I really hate to change and I really was a big supporter of their product since v8.  But I live by a simple rule:  If you don't care about me, why should I care about you.  This is alls I can stands - I can't stands no more.

fre31229:

... In my opinion, they have to know that if Studio 13 doesn't resolve all the issues that users have been complaining about since version 9, and add more video & audio tracks and features that some of the other competitors have in the currently, they will lose their Market.  ... [If] they haven't fixed their bugs or the features aren't that exciting, I'm done with them.

Well put.  Added gee-whiz features, or the mere ability to haul a clip to a timeline, are not much help if one then loses enormous time trying to remedy frequent and confounding "export error:real time" snags or the whole system hangs.  Added video tracks, I fear, will compound the incidence of such problems, especially if they are HD and involve transitions and effects.  I don't even want to imagine trouble-shooting, were a three or four-track project to fail upon render.  Two video tracks, plus title or still overlays, are trouble enough.

fre31229:

 This is alls I can stands - I can't stands no more.

Bluto would agree.  There are other products whose basic user-interface is easy and, even if they don't offer a full palette of effects, at least allow one to create a basic video in 12 hours, without intervening days of workarounds.  Other products are "less intuitive" and cost more, but don't seem to beguile the user with blind alleys and fails.

The one piece of "candy" to distinguish Studio, if fixing bugs weren't enough, would be to introduce a new file export format that could allow HDD, flash memory, or uploaded video files to link in a way that resembles DVD menus and chapters.  Perhaps it would require the viewer to install a plug-in to their media player, but it could be a revolutionary way to share structured HD (or any) videos without need for an optical disc player at all.  However, I suspect the initiative will come from the portable device manufacturers, which might mean that iMovie gets prior and preferential access to the format.  My personal preference is for a Sibelius or M-Audio plug-in to allow simultaneous creation and edits of video and music, but this will be no help if my projects still fail when rendering.

fre31229:

For the most part I too agree with user JKoch.  However, I would like to add that, in my opinion, they have to know that if Studio 13 doesn't resolve all the issues that users have been complaining about since version 9, and add more video & audio tracks and features that some of the other competitors have in the currently, they will lose their Market.

Let me start out by saying I have no ties with Pinnacle or any other software manufacturer. I have progressed in editing from a/b roll and the Amiga Video Toaster (what fun I had with that setup), DPS Editbay, Pinnacle DV500Plus with Adobe Premierev6.x, Edition v5.5 to Avid Liquid v7.x, and Studio from v9-12Ultimate. I buy what I believe will fit my needs.

On that note, you can go to any NLE forums and see people having problems with their software. And I mean any forum. If I judged a product by people having problems, I would not use a computer.

For the most part, Studio has been  stable for me and does what it is suppose to do. While not as stable as Liquid, I can't complain. The bugs that others have complained about since v9 either don't affect me directly, or I have not experienced them in the videos that I have edited.

With the ability now to download the competitors software and evaluate for 30 days puts us in a better position to make an informed decision. To switch or not to switch, that is the question.

A lot of the users in the forum have been loyal customers to Pinnacle, but due to the lack of customer support and quickness of report bug fixes, I see a change coming.  The problem is, Pinnacle has not been loyal to their customers.

You would have to define "loyal" for me. I paid for S12Ultimate. All the plug ins work. The program works. There have been lock ups, but thanks to Liquid's back bone and auto save feature, I have lost nothing (I also save constantly anyway). The product pricing for S12U was great for me. I do agree that other products do have some features (in the Studio price range) that can make choices more "difficult".

Most of the competitors software offer a lot of cool features and intergrate very nicely with 3rd party applications and Adobe CS4.  Which allow the editors to get very creative.  Pinnacle mostly has work arounds.  So I think most of use will sit back this time and see what v13 has to offer and the upgrade price.  They better hope their price isn't anything close to any special or regular price of their competitors and they haven't fixed their bugs or the features aren't that exciting, I'm done with them.

Plug ins to work with CS4, for what? NewBlueFX offers a lot of stuff for Studio (and other NLE's). And there are others out there too. BUT, if you want "pro" plug ins, you are using the wrong program in Studio. The Corel Suite Video Studio does not integrate with CS4, neither does Movie Studio (Vegas). Which one of those programs offers you (although at a stripped down funtionality) Boris Grafitti, Magic Bullets, and VitaScene? Not bad for the price. Oh yeah, I wish I have more tracks to mess with, but I have Liquid for that.  I have gripes about Studio's interface. But it was basically designed to get someone up and running in the least amount of time. It's simple and easy to use. But, as you said, in order to compete, it will have to offer more that what we already have. Bug fixes? Every program has bugs. Some get fixed and others just hang around. I have been really fortunate not to suffer from many of them in the programs that I have used.

And that's too bad.  I really hate to change and I really was a big supporter of their product since v8.  But I live by a simple rule:  If you don't care about me, why should I care about you.  This is alls I can stands - I can't stands no more.

The only way any company can show they care about me is to GIVE me the stuff for free! I don't know what the pricing programs are for other competing products, but I do know that Avid/Pinnacle have been more than great with their pricing for upgrades, specials, etc.. 

I will wait. I have no brand loyalty. I have a "me" loyalty and will buy what suites my needs. If it's Pinnacle, fine. Edius (I have yet to install it on my computer. No free time) or anything else. But, from what I have read in the Liquid forum, I think I will wait and see.

Tony P:

I will wait. I have no brand loyalty. I have a "me" loyalty and will buy what suites my needs. If it's Pinnacle, fine. Edius (I have yet to install it on my computer. No free time) or anything else. But, from what I have read in the Liquid forum, I think I will wait and see.

I think the key is right there. It's all about "me" loyalty. If the program you're using fits you and works for you then you should stick with it. But if it's holding you back and preventing you from achieving what you want, then you owe it to yourself to look elsewhere and not feel one iota of guilt while doing it. You owe Avid, or Pinnacle, or adobe, etc absolutely nothing. It is they who owe you.

Most people however stick with what they have not necessarily because of any "brand loyalty", but rather because they know it and as a result, they're free to concentrate on what they wish to create as opposed to learning a new program.

Bare in mind however, that there are lots of programs out there and the only one that gets short-changed by not investigating, is you.

I do a lot of youth concert / marching band work and have completely left Dolby. recording with an external ZoomH4n at 48kbs/24bit pcm. You would be amazed at how much presence and "sparkle" Dolby compression removes. Even commercial DVDs or DTV with Dolby sound lifeless.

I did more than a few Dolby surround disks, following the 'gotta have' herd until I began to think for myself. Burn a few disks with pcm vs Dolby. Set your camera out in the yard recording crickets (assuming you are recording DV /pcm audio) and listen to what you are missing.

The DVD standard allows for much better audio that is commercially made, BD even higher. Yet the possibilities remain unexplored, so you can hear a garbage can fall "behind you".

There certainly is a place for surround sound, but there is also a price. 

A user who employs the same equipment to produce very similar video projects, week after week, can probably learn and either avoid or work around Studio glitches.  However, a person whose projects vary greatly and involve successive new types of video and file formats, is apt to crash against render, export, and performance issues.  My situation is that I edit new formats from new cameras all the time, much of it poor and in need of all kinds of corrections or fixes, and no two recipients wants their video to resemble the prior one, requiring constant attempts at new types of overlays, melts, or title gimmicks.

Whether continued use of a product owes to loyalty, habit, laziness, incipient senility, or cowardice, sooner or later market conditions change, and the vendors must adjust.  There are also lots of loyal Pontiac, Dodge, and Oldsmobile owners.

Regarding plug-ins, it would be great if Avid got around to developing Studio plug-ins that complement its own lines of audio and peripheral hardware devices.  Will it?

Since it's hard for any publisher to make money peddling NLE products these days, and Pinnacle has been a lagging segment in Avid's operations ever since its costly acquisition, Avid may finally decide to "cut bait" and sell the copywrites and customer list to any bidder it can get.  Unless a Studio 13 gets announced soon, I'd bet a that, on July 23, the CEO will make a vague announcement that Avid will divest from the consumer video editing business.  He won't say it that way.  Rather, his vision will be to "exit legacy products" and "capitalize on synergies by unifying strategic product areas."  In practice, that means disposing existing products, perhaps like PCTV's sale to Hauppauge, and and then coaxing a few "loyals" to buy a intro version of its AMC.  For $150, the loyalists will be allowed past a turnstyle and gain admission to a carnival where, after going from tent to tent and spending another $1,500, they end up with something like the full prosumer versions of Vegas or Premier, but still a tad $3,000 short of the full AMC menu.  From a strict financial standpoint, this might be the smartest thing to do, if Avid itself frees itself from consumer video loyalists of its own, who still hope to sink every last penny digging yet another shaft into software publishing's toxic slag heap, and strike gold.

Question: is there any sort of Y2K-type feature in Liquid or Studio that, unless there is a registration renewal or eventual upgrade, inherently causes them to break down after X number of years?  Perhaps in X years the diehards to join SOSALL (Society of Studio and Liquid Loyalists), perhaps exiled to the outer Chaco wilds of Paraguay, will learn the answer.

Hmmm......Well, whatever the next Studio Version turns-out to be, whether a Standalone or incorporated in NextGen, it'll be interesting to see how SmartSounds & purchased Premium Content transferred to S12, is handled.

........And, if it's just NextGen or both, which Forum will it/they be incorporated in? 

Just a few more thoughts, to add to the speculation.  

JKoch:

  Perhaps in X years the diehards to join SOSALL (Society of Studio and Liquid Loyalists), perhaps exiled to the outer Chaco wilds of Paraguay, will learn the answer.

They might even wind up dancing with tarantulas

pinshel:

They might even wind up dancing with tarantulas

Naw.  More likely with this. 

As v13 for sure will come with a hiss and a roar, lots of sparkles and much fireworks, the realease date can only be 5th November. Guy Fawkes day

Keith

Holsie:

As v13 for sure will come with a hiss and a roar, lots of sparkles and much fireworks, the realease date can only be 5th November. Guy Fawkes day

Keith

Maybe we can put it in the cellars. Set it alight & blow up Parliament 2 Environmental problems got rid-of. Mental, being the operative word 

A Studio 13 or NG?  What and when?  Neither users nor Support (a vanishing species) honestly know.  Latest speculations (perhaps in April, 2010) are based mainly on .  The message from corporate HQ is that video products will merge.  Since AMC is the mainstay of Avid's video product base, that insinuates that any successor to Pinnacle / Liquid will be built around or lead to it.  According to the CEO, a first task of a newly appointed product manager was to learn AMC.

 People curious about the future of Studio or Liquid might place their queries on Avid's AMC forum, or else contact its manager by one means or another.  She probably has no "official" answer, but will certainly come up with one if repeat inquiries put the issue on the radar screen.  The company ought to make some sort of announcement.

Avid is trimming back on resources for Pinnacle support and product management, surely no sign that any upgrade is pending.  Some merger with AMC is possible, athough not certain either, unless Avid says so.  The present strategy is to cut costs and hunker down, until the commercial and consumer video markets improve.  Most of Marketing's TLC is being applied to protect existing AMC clients and to fend of FCP. 

AMC's present versions are comparable to other commercial grade NLEs, but not suitable or affordable for hobbyists or small professionals.  Perhaps some new product or bridge to AMC is in alpha or incipient beta stage, but the company probably prefers to defer the incremental costs of release and support until there is at least some assurance that the core markets for AMC and Sibelius can recover and restore profits.  The IR site, between what it says and does not say, tells most of the story.

Meanwhile, there is nothing to lose by taking a look at the fresh announcements, innovations, and upgrades that competing firms continue to issue.

3 days ago pre-ordering for Studio 14 was available on Amazon.fr. Availability date announced was 09/13/2009.

Since then, the pages have been deleted !

Error or premature announcement ?

So it is called Studio 14?

All my searches points to a Dell Studio 14 notebook.

Error or premature announcement ?

Practical joke?

Maybe it was supposed to be Studio 13, released on the 14th

.