Well guys and girls I finally got around to finishing my first software tool for Liquid.  The best part is that I am sharing this with all of you for free.

It has been a long journey but I finally managed to get things working right and somehow I actually found the time to finish it.  Maybe I will get around to finish some of the other ones.  Most of my stuff has been very experimental and when I say experimental I mean super experimental.  A lot of stuff just didn't end up working the way I had hoped it would.  My goal now is to do my best to fill in some of the gaps left in Liquid that will never get filled except for by crazy fools such as myself.  Anyway...

 

Liquid m2v codecs:

These may or may not be usefull for everybody but this is for the most part a hack of how Liquid deals with m2v codec presets.  Normal Liquid can only ever use up to 50 mbits/s for it's m2v codecs.  This is fine for HDV editing or SD editing but it really left those who were serious about HD production in the dark.  Our only choice really for HD editing in Liquid is HDV or uncompressed HD.  This is kind of the two extreme ends to th spectrum but we never really had an in between.  Many other NLES use some form of intermediate format for HD production work such as Cineform, Canopus, Avid DnxHD, and Apple Prores.  These formats allow people to work with a high quality HD format that doesn't eat massive amounts of drive space and bandwidth.

So this tool forces some of my own m2v presets that allow bitrates up to 300 mbits/s (37.5 MB/S).  This is the max level of quality mpeg2 can have and is virtually perfect compared to uncompressed HD.  It basically looks as good as 50 mbits/s SD material compared to uncompressed SD.  It isn't lossless but it is almost visually lossless and you would be really hard pressed to tell the difference.  In fact other then it being an 8 bit format I would say it is superior to DnxHD 220.

There are 9 presets ranging from 35 mbit/s for the SONY EX1 camera and all the way up to 300 mbits/s.  There are even presets for the upcoming Flash XDR unit which is a HD-SDI capture device for cameras to record directly to media cards with up to 160 mbit mpeg2.  There is even a I frame only version of a intermediate codec for EX1 users.  It runs at 100 mbits/s which would roughly be the I frame only equivalent to 35 mbits/s IPB.  I have done lots of image tests and it is impossible to tell the difference between raw 35mbit material and converted 100 mbit material so there is no loss in quality.

M2v-intra (my own take on AVC-intra but with mpeg2) really is the ultimate format to work with in Liquid.  It is the only codec that offers a wide range of flexibility and can offer seamless import, render and fuse functions.  About the only thing missing in Liquid is a way to capture to these codecs but that doesn't have to be a huge deal breaker.  Here are some uses:

• Chrome users can capture uncompressed like they do now and convert to m2v-intra.  This allows them to use 1/3 to 1/6 the amount of bandwidth for each stream which equals more layers of editing in Liquid.  It also means more material per GB of storage.
• Flash XDR users have direct codecs to support the material they will shoot.
• animations and graphics will no longer have to be converted to HDV or massive uncompressed files.  You can still work with native HDV video but all your other elements will stay high quality.
• m2v-intra files scrub and run in Liquid much faster then IPB based files.
• DVCPROHD and Blackmagic mjpeg users will no longer have to render their high quality footage to HDV or uncompressed HD.  The 100 or 160 mbit presets will be a great quality match to preserve your material.
• SONY EX1 users can convert their footage to a m2v-intra format for a smoother work flow.

http://www.smetware.com/liquid_m2v_codecs.zip

 

Sounds fantastic Thomas - looking forward to trying it out with HDV material (once your download link works )

Thanks

Ok guys it should work for now until I get my new web page uploaded.  Thats what I get for staying up till 4:00 AM to finish this thing.  I don't expect there should be any bugs in this thing but you never know.  I can't imagine anybody needing any other presets but if they do please let me know.

I am working on a PDF that lists how to best use these codecs.  While 300 mbits is the max, the way mpeg2 works is it is pretty darn rare you would ever need that high.  m2v-intra doesn't suffer from th same sort of IPB artifacts and normal HDV and the only thing you introduce with lower bitrates is more noise.  Basically it works almost exactly like a mjpeg codec.  160 mbits and in many cases 100 mbits is still awesome quality.  In fact HDV or XDCAMHD material converted with a program to retain constant quality hardly goes over 100 mbits/s m2v-intra.  Also keep in mind that most tape sources including DVCPROHD and HDCAM already have a pretty heavy form of jpeg DCT compression so they will never really get better then 160 mbits/s anyway.  The only time I could ever see 300 mbits is:

A.  If you are nuts. 

B.  You are working with true raw never even seen a DCT based codec uncompressed material.  Even then you can be the judge but the quality improvement is super small for the double bandwidth being used.

160 mbits/s = 20MB/S or about the data rate of uncompressed SD.  This could equal a lot of layers of RT for 95% the same level of quality.  100 mbits/s is about as low as I would go for 1920x1080 material.  You could get by with lower but you might start to notice more noise and edge artifacts.

Those working with 1280x720p at 24p,25p or 30p keep in mind that you are using half the data rate of 50p or 60p so you will get the same level of quality if you use half the bitrate.  50 mbits/s with 720p 24p material looks very good and anything beyond 100 mbits/s is a total waste of space.

I have some 4:2:0 codecs because really if you don't up convert the 4:2:0 color you are just using more bits to show the same thing.

There are also some IPB codecs because IPB doesn't have to be a bad thing.  The only reason why HDV is bad to some people is because 25 mbits is too low in some cases.  50 mbits or 80 mbits look a thousand times better.  Most people already notice this with how much better 35 mbit material looks from the SONY EX1.  80 mbit IPB material really is pretty much just as good as 300 mbit m2v-intra.  The system just has more stuff to calculate with IPB so it will always be a bit slower.  Thats the universal trade off between hard drive and CPU when dealing with video.

Oh one last thing.  Do not try to modify these codecs in Liquid.  If you do so they will revert somehow back to 50 mbits/s.  I said these were a hack.    If you do just run the exe file again and it will replace all the codecs.

Hi Thomas,

I just tried to install these codecs and I'm thinking that something is going wrong. Dumb question,  but where in Liquid will I see these (I don't see any changes in the list provided for codecs in the control pannel).

Also - where does Liquid store these in the file system? I'm running Vista Ultimate 64 and wondered if this is causing an issue?

Thanks,

Yes there could be an issue with Vista due to it's dumb restrictions on creating software that deletes and alters files.  I don't have Vista here so I have no way of testing it so at this time I cannot support Vista.  I had really hoped it would just work.  Has anybody else tried it under XP to see if it works for them.  I tried it on 3 XP systems and it works.

 

One other thing is your copy of Liquid installed in the default location or is it in some odd place?  Like a goon I assumed the default location for Liquid because I was too lazy for the program to do a search for it.

One thing that you should know is that on Vista 64, the Program Files directory for 32-bit apps is called 'Program Files (x86)' and this is probably the issue.

I wonder - did you hard-code the string "Program Files" or did you use the macro expression that will resolve to "Program Files" (can't remember the details, myself). Perhaps you could allow the user to point to the Liquid installation directory?

Can you give me any more information about how to manually apply these changes?

Thanks,

ok I think you found the problem.  I wasn't aware the program files folder was program files (x86).  Yes I hard coded the location like a idiot.  I was going to let the user pick the location but I thought it would be easier this way.  This is what I get for being lazy.  Let me see if I can fix it.

Ok the file should work now.  I added a folder selection dialog.  Just select the Avid folder or the Avid Liquid 7 folder or whatever works.  If you installed Liquid into Fred then pick Fred.

The link in the first post points to the updated file.

Worked well on both my Xp machine and my V 64 machine, well done Thomas, seems to like StudioL also, all 4 cores at 95 %, will do some more render tests and let you know

mjolnarn:

Worked well on both my Xp machine and my V 64 machine, well done Thomas, seems to like StudioL also, all 4 cores at 95 %, will do some more render tests and let you know

Tomas,

I know you use the Studio mod files now with Vista 64, and it appears you are also using Smets new hack. I was thinking of doing both mods, but before I do, I jsut wondered if you think it is worth the time. Just an estimate here, but could you estimate how much better, or faster, your system in Liquid works now with both mods?

moodman:

I know you use the Studio mod files now with Vista 64, and it appears you are also using Smets new hack. I was thinking of doing both mods, but before I do, I jsut wondered if you think it is worth the time. Just an estimate here, but could you estimate how much better, or faster, your system in Liquid works now with both mods?

Doug, I will do some quality tests with the codecs, quality comes first, I´m trying the 300 Intra right now, will do a fuse and see how it fits into my bluray workflow, my nights sleep will come between, let you all know tomorrow.

Awesome news Tomas!  I'm glad to hear it works even under Vista.  I had my doubts.  One of these days I am going to have to try out your studioL hack.  I will now try to finish up my next tool.

• A replacement for SONY's disgusting excuse for the clip browsing software for EX1 users.  My tool demuxes the mp4 files into m2v and wav files and it will create a xml file to directly import everything into Liquid with full timecode support.

Thomas Smet - Thanks for the Free Liquid Tool - got it working under Vista 64 now and played with it some. Looks good. Results are impressive - Nice not to have to go to uncompressed when rendering and fusing my sequences.

A big thanks,

 

I have rendered 2 hd projects now, 10 minutes and 30 minutes, the 30 minutes is the one used for testing the Dx 10 patch.

I used the intra 300 codec.

Fusing went fine, ran a Gspot on the video file as shown.

The file was not recognized by Dvdit Pro HD, pity ...

 

Interesting - I found that all of the 4:2:2 presets were unrecognized by TmpGEnc as well (the program I usually use to down-scale to SD and out to DVD). I wonder why that is - perhaps neither program is designed to switch color space during transcode?

Some programs are a little funny with forms of mpeg2 as a source.  It shouldn't be this way but it is.  Even the mpeg2 component for Quick time Pro will not work with 4:2:2 profile mpeg2 video.  There is no logical reason for it other then companies dumbing down their mpeg2 support on purpose.  I'm a little surprised some of those programs do not work but then again they can only encode 4:2:0 mpeg2 so they may limit their overall mpeg2 support.  Programs such as the Main Concept encoder have no problem at all with these files but then again Main Concept can encode these formats as well.  I do know TmpGEnc can work with Avisynth files so you could create a simple script that just loads a m2v file.  In fact I will make a quick utility that will quickly create a avs file for you guys.  This should greatly expand the supported programs.

Looking forward to the utitity Thomas.

Meanwhile, Adobe CS3 mediaencoder is able to reencode the videofiles.

I think understand what these are supposed to do, I don't completely understand where and how I'm supposed to see them. Should they appear as additional options when I create a new sequence? Additional options when I import files? Additional options in output? Installing them in C:\Program Files\Avid\Liquid (I think this is the default). Is correct, yes?

They are hd render codecs Marc, you can find them in the render codec options, they are used to render colour editing better than the standard hd codec without the need of render in uncompressed hd.

Thomas,

at installation the program asks for overwriting the original codecs.

What is this and what it does?

How do you messure better than the other codecs?

I was hoping this might give me an option in editing. I have an EX1. I use Sony's software to export to MXF (so I've already lost some resolution). But then my choices for sequences are essentially HDV and HD. I was hoping this would give me an intermediate format that  wouldn't be the disk pig of full HD. No, huh?

Mmyers,

Thats exactly what this does.  It expands the list of codecs so they are not limited to HDV rendering.  This stuff if perfect for EX1 users and in fact I am working on other tools for EX1 users as well.

Liquid has always been able to import any form of mpeg2 you can think of.  What it lacked was a render and fuse codec to match a higher form of mpeg2.  Now with my tool you can render to a higher quality format.  With my next tool you will even be able to convert EX1 and HDV footage to these higher quality formats if you so wish.  These codecs are also great for those who work with higher quality formats such as DVCPROHD.  Currently even though Liquid supports editing of DVCPROHD material the choices for rendering were pretty slim.  Those who edit uncompressed HD will now have a render codec and a possible format conversion format to ease the bandwidth of their material.

After you setup the codecs you just go into your sequence settings to select which preset you want to use.  These new presets work exactly the same as the current ones.

Sverkalo,

This tool doesn't change any of the standard Liquid codecs.  The only thing that gets changed are any custom presets you may have made yourself.  Since many of the codecs don't really offer very many options very few people make their own presets or have very little reason to do so with the limited ranges Liquid offered on it's own.  If there is a preset you really want that isn't included in my tool then all you have to do is make them over again once you setup the presets.  They will be fine unless you setup the tool again.