Ok, bear with me. As this is a detailed problem report.

The official ticket at Pinnacle support is: I wish to record a session from my old PAL 8-bit computer through composite, but I only see preview in NTSC mode. [Incident: 080729-000965]

The bottom line of what I wish to do is record whatever I do with my Commodore 64 in real-time with the Moviebox 510 USB.

Problem: The composite signal from the C64 (from the 8-pin DIN plug containing composite video output, separate Y/C outputs and sound input/output) is detected but not properly processed in Studio (black preview screen, error when start of recording).

Interesting phenomena:

1. Studio: When I set the source to PAL, the preview is black, but there is no obvious error "No signal detected", thus there is a signal
2. Studio: When I set the source to NTSC, there is a colour preview, but of a more or less scrambled quality to the fact that the C64 is PAL. Recording works, but the end result is like playing a PAL program on an NTSC machine.
3. Studio: When I use composite video from my PC graphics card, the preview is nice and clear, as is recording. Interesting: when I quickly remove the composite signal from the PC and plug in my Commodore 64 during recording, the C64 signal is nice and clear and recording continues.
4. Studio: When I use a composite to s-video adapter on my C64 and use the s-video in of the Moviebox, preview is again black and recording not possible.
5. AMCAP: Similar issues: in choosing the source, there IS a signal detected, AMCAP tells me, but again no preview and capturing gives an error.

This leads me to conclude that the 510 USB driver/software cannot cope with the PAL signal eminating from the Commodore 64. It seems the software/hardware expects a certain signal of frequency/strength that the C64 does not deliver during the preview phase in Studio. The Studio software cannot handle the signal right and therefore cannot commence recording. However, once recording is on-going, the Studio software can be tricked. Starting recording first with the PC graphics card s-video-out signal, then quickly switching to the composite video out signal during recording actually shows a perfect PAL C64 image.

 For those of you that have a solution to this problem I would like to ask to come up with that. ;) Pinnacle has no clue and have said they'd try to reproduce the problem with a PAL Commodore 64 attached to a Moviebox USB 510.

For a read on the difference of C64 NTSC and PAL: http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/pal64/palc64.html
For a nice read on the PAL signal forms, and video display: http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/modes/

Any ideas?

From your timezone, I assume you are in a NTSC country?

So is the C64 you are using an original PAL one, or one that has been modified to output PAL?

Hello Mr. Mouse. Welcome to the forums.

This kind of piqued my curiosity. While I check if I can reproduce this, can you confirm if you have check VCR Input in the capture source and try capturing in NTSC standard?

Hi Mon Roy,

I have tried every possible setting you can imagine. Also checking VCR input (but then it simply says there's no signal).

This problem seems related to the Moviebox, either the hardware or the USB driver: 

I bought a Canopus ADVC110 in frustration, as I really need to be able to capture the C64 signal. The ADVC110 uses a 6-pin FireWire connection and needs no drivers. You can use it with any good Capturing software. Now I got a PAL signal from the Commodore 64. So the Canopus does indeed pass through the signal. Interestingly, Studio could also now capture the signal! So there is definitely something fishy going on with the Moviebox 510 hardware/software.

Well, if no-one can or will help me out here, perhaps I'll provide some more insight into this problem. I experienced some issue also with the Canapos ADVC110.

The key issue is that the Commodore 64 PAL signal is progressive (non-interlaced). Standard PAL is 720x576 interlaced at 25 fps (two fields of 288 scanlines, the odd lines and the even lines, together making up 576 vertical frames). This is okay for TVs, but computer graphics used to be (and still are) progressive. The Commodore 64 is no different.

In progressive mode the two fields are actual frames. The vertical lines are in the order of the frame (so not jumping every other scanline, like in interlace). This meant that the first field should be a whole frame, as well as the second.

While the ADVC110 did pass the Commodore signal via DV/FireWire to whichever capturing software (as opposed to the Moviebox 510), it treated the signal as interlaced. So I got the typical distorted twittering image. I had to search arround the internet to find software that would let me change the processing of the raw video, it is disturbing that any commercial software packaged with these devices has limited flexibility.

Finally I found VirtualDub, an excellent free program that let's one apply all kinds of filters on a raw video. This way I could opt to show only Field 1 for instance. To my satisfaction I now had a razor sharp image that I could compress and save as DivX or other format.

Of course, I possibly lose frame information that is in Field 2. I will have to see how to deal with that.

Mr.Mouse:

Well, if no-one can or will help me out here, perhaps I'll provide some more insight into this problem. I experienced some issue also with the Canapos ADVC110.

The key issue is that the Commodore 64 PAL signal is progressive (non-interlaced). Standard PAL is 720x576 interlaced at 25 fps (two fields of 288 scanlines, the odd lines and the even lines, together making up 576 vertical frames). This is okay for TVs, but computer graphics used to be (and still are) progressive. The Commodore 64 is no different.

In progressive mode the two fields are actual frames. The vertical lines are in the order of the frame (so not jumping every other scanline, like in interlace). This meant that the first field should be a whole frame, as well as the second.

While the ADVC110 did pass the Commodore signal via DV/FireWire to whichever capturing software (as opposed to the Moviebox 510), it treated the signal as interlaced. So I got the typical distorted twittering image. I had to search arround the internet to find software that would let me change the processing of the raw video, it is disturbing that any commercial software packaged with these devices has limited flexibility.

Finally I found VirtualDub, an excellent free program that let's one apply all kinds of filters on a raw video. This way I could opt to show only Field 1 for instance. To my satisfaction I now had a razor sharp image that I could compress and save as DivX or other format.

Of course, I possibly lose frame information that is in Field 2. I will have to see how to deal with that.

Im no technical expert when it comes to video format nor own a C64. I will only state the facts that I have gathered that maybe related to the issue. The 510 Moviebox can only handle 480i (NTSC/PAL interlaced video). Unless you are able to force the commodore to output Interlaced video, you wont be able to allow the 510 to capture properly.

I'm glad you found a solution that works for you. Thank you for sharing it with us, it will be helpful for others in this same situation.

Well, I would have wished the Moviebox 510 would at least pass through the signal so I could work on the end result.

 I have also stumbled upon AviSynth, another free package, that let's the user script-edit the output of an AVI file. It takes a few commands that you can write in notepad and saving the file as an .avs file. In the script you open a video file, perform some action on it and then pass through the new video. This is powerful in conjuction with VirtualDub.

I believe I can write a script that will hopefuly solve the issue of the missing frame. You see, I've found that the second frame (field 2) is indeed important as it contains the next frame in time. using only Field 1 or 2 to compress into a new viedofile would result in loss of 50% of the frames, thusly impacting the smoothness of the motion.

I also noticed that the second frame is misaligned, the starting offset is lower than field 1 (thus the image is positioned higher in the frame than field 1). Using AvySynth I should be able to correct this alignment of the Field 2 frames using something like :

Bf=SelectOdd().Crop(0,0,720,284).AddBorders(0,4,0,0)

or along similar lines. This would first delete the bottom 4 scanlines and then add 4 new scanlines at the top, effectively aligning the frame 4 lines down.

Then perhaps I'll have to fix the x-orientation of the frame as well or use a Bob filter to correct for motion-problems.

I'll post any script that succesfully fixes this problem here.

Well, I've fixed it enough to be workable. Unfortunately, capture through Moviebox 510 is not in the solution.

Install VirtualDub and Avisynth (both free open source programs, check SourceForge)

1. Capture the PAL C64 signal through the Canopus ADVC110 in Premiere or other capture software and save it as AVI
2. Create a new myvideo.avs (or other name.avs) file in a folder where your captured AVI is.
3. Edit the .avs file with notepad and copy and paste my script

# The XeNTaX Foundation presents in 2008:
# AviSynth script to fix misinterpreted Commodore 64 signal
# Signal was captured with ADVC110
# Script written by XeNTaX's Mr.Mouse (<A href="http://www.xentax.com/">http://www.xentax.com</A>)
# ----------
Avisource("pathtomyvideo.avi")
AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields()
Tf=SelectOdd().Crop(0,2,720,286).AddBorders(0,0,0,2).Spline64Resize(384,288)
Bf=SelectEven().Spline64Resize(384,288)
Interleave(Tf,Bf)
AssumeFrameBased

4. Open the .avs file as a clip/video in VirtualDub
5. Notice how everything is quite in order. Manipulate and save at will!

The script first assumes that the picture is interlaced (which it is because of the wrong capturing). However, the two interlace fields 1 and 2 are actually whole consecutive frames of 720x288. So Field 1 is one frame before Field 2.

Okay, but the actual C64 signal is not 720x288, but 384x288. Pixels are not fully square on the C64 with a little less x than meets the y. So we need to resize.

The script fixes a misalignment of Field 2 paradoxally by moving the frame of Field 1 2 scanlines up. I do this, because of AviSynth restrictions. I take away the top 2 scanlines in Field 1 (the Odd lines) and add two black lines at the bottom. This way I align Field 1 with the misaligned Field 2. Sledgehammer: Trust me, I know what I'm doing. Consequently, I resize each frame/field to 384x288 and why not, because that will give me the 4:3 aspect ratio the C64 has anyway, with a slightly elongated pixel in vertical direction (double the x size). Then I tell AviSynth: "just kidding when I said it was field-based, it is actually frame based!" The video output will now be progressive and each frame will be in the right order.

An example of a thusly created video is here (80 mb):
 
This is the C64 demo Bonzieed, by Bonzai.

http://www.xentax.com/taoc/bonzied_compressed.avi