Ok, I'm back with some tests for using my Canon HV20 and capture 25p and Cinemode through Firewire.

First: everything works! Splendid.

No glitches.

The first footage was shot in [HDV25]. That puts the camera in 25p mode. I shot in my livingroom during the evening. So evening darkness with some background lights.

I captured this footage in an HDV project. Because this was the first time, I had to guess what the settings should be for the TL. I guessed wrong! 720/25p???? Stupid me....

After the capture I asked for the properties and saw that it was as all my HDV footage: 1440x1080, 24 bits/pixel. In changed the TL setting to 1440x1080 -16:9 (non square).

No idea why, or what it means, but the TL does not need to render, so must be according the captured footage.

That leads me to the conclusion that as far as Liquid concerns, these 25p mode and Cinemode are only for the recording but not for the capture of any influence.

Am I correct in this?

So what is he benifit of shooting in 25p and Cinemode? I think that the shooting done in 25p (and eventually also in Cinemode) is important for what I want to get recorded. In low light conditions I see in the footage a clear difference/improvement. I did no action in the shooting, so the Cinemode was probably not of any influence.

I just remembered that there was a difference: in the colors! But there is an easy explanation for that: for Cinemode the camera is switched off for Auto. So, all settings for light etc. must be set by hand. Probably one of settings was quite different from what the camera does in Auto mode. While Blanace perhaps? Doesn't matter. I will try these settings another time.

 

A couple of things come to mind. First, Liquid may not understand that the footage is progressive (the footage will still have two fields, but they were captured at the same time in the camera). If this is the case, you'll have to change your clip properties to 'non interlaced'. Then, you'll have to create a custom timeline setting based on the HDV 1080/50i 1440x1080 setting but with interlacing set to non-interlaced.

With these two changes, Liquid will understand that the media and rendering are non-interlaced and will presumably treat this differently than it would interlaced source material.

Should note that this is really just a guess based upon my experience with other progressive media in Liquid. On the other hand, if Liquid understands that your source clips are progressive (which I doubt) your answer may be different...

If you try my suggestion, post back here - I'd be interested to know the result.

Cheers

See the attached picture. I have selected non-interlaced, but the clip properties stay as they were.

And is that not what it should be? I captured directly from my camera through Firewire. The properties hown are from that capture. That means, the Canon itselfn decidesn how to play the clip to my PC?

I have set the TL also to non-interlaced and the clip does not need any rendering.

I don't see any difference with my setup.

From what can I see that the clip is handled as non-interlaced or not?

 

Hi Sef - I've never used the HV20 - I am simply suspecting that Liquid does not understand that video is actually progressive. I'm not even sure what difference it makes other than perhaps to the way effects are rendered over the source material.

If the footage really is progressive and you change BOTH the clip properties AND the timeline to 'non-interlaced' that should allow your clip effects and transitions (and titles) to render correctly as progressive media. In reality, I don't know if this makes any difference to the final result.

If I had this camera, I would perform two tests. One with the original interlaced settings (for both clip and timeline) and one with 'non-interlaced' settings. The tests would have to include clip effects, timewarp, transitions and titles. I would then output each to DVD (or output monitor other than computer) and see if the results differed. I'd look for interlace artifacts in both, for example.

If you perform this sort of testing, I'd love to hear the results!

Cheers

Well Steve,

that is a lot of work that's coming to me.

My test only to see what happens when I capture a piece of footage shot in 25p.

From what I see in the properties of the captured (not edited) footage is, that it says: interlaced.

There is in te properties popup the possibility in which I can set Interlaced. But that does not effect the original properties of the clip.

But whatever I change, the clip on the TL keeps OK i.e. there is no rendering needed.

From what you tell me, you expect different behaviour when working with the clips on the TL. Apply transitions, effects etc. And then, after all the work, make a DVD and see what happens.

That is what I understood. But I'm not sure if the knowledge after all will be at help for me now.

I want to shoot in the default Auto way. I want to capture the default HDV way.

Then I expect that all things I do, will act normal. In fact, my first shooting I presented on Vimeo, was with some basic edits. There was no problem in making the wmv.

But I keep in mind that there is some curiosity from your site and when possible, I will do some more tests.

At the moment other problems came up: Server down because of damaged Router. All evacution had to be done. That had priority.

Typical Monday morning issue.

Cinemode makes the best it can to eliminate the color grain.

But to be honest if the light is too low the picture isn't that good to my eyes. 

But it's a lot better than any 1-chip miniDV cam I have seen.

When the light is good it kicks out every 3ccd miniDV cam.

As for the 25p I have to say about the blurriness that creates.

What I see is that at the final SD DVD produced there is the same blurriness as with the 25p.

Also when I turn the render/codec to uncompressed, it isn't rendering at all unless I change to 1920x1080!!!

Both HV20 shots are with cinemode.

Enjoy. 

It's more than clear to me that VX2k handles much better the color space in low light. 

But let's not forget that VX2k cost me back then almost 3700 Euros while I bought HV20 for 900.

I am also sure that HV20 will outperform my VX2K in good lighting conditions. 

VX2K/VX2.1K/PD150/PD170 are beasts of low light as it is the new EX1. 

I just came back from a 2-days shooting at mountains for a documentary.

We used a Z1 (the cameraman) and I with my HV20 for B shots(50i/cinemode/Tv priority at 50-not 25fps).

Honestly the day clips are just equal. And I mean equal.

The picture quality is just there. I cant understand what is what even if I know all the shots.

Only in low light HV20 looses because of the color artifacts it creates if you push it over cinemode.

With Cinemode the low light is good but Z1 is somehow better.

Amazing. 

And a lot more expensive, I guess....

5000 to 1000.

We used a Z1 (the cameraman) and I with my HV20 for B shots(50i/cinemode/Tv priority at 50-not 25fps).

I was looking at the HV20 specs. and didn't see where the Canon shoots in 50i....

The Z1 can shoot 50i... but, does the HV20 also shoot in 50i?

Joe 

 

In PAL, the HV20 shoots in highest HDV setting, 50i. You have now to talk about fields. Not frames.

However, through firewire you can get not "better" than 1440 (and not 1920).

joe m:

We used a Z1 (the cameraman) and I with my HV20 for B shots(50i/cinemode/Tv priority at 50-not 25fps).

I was looking at the HV20 specs. and didn't see where the Canon shoots in 50i....

The Z1 can shoot 50i... but, does the HV20 also shoot in 50i?

Joe 

HDV=50i

HDV 25p=Progressive.

Of course it shoots 50i. 25p is a bonus. It's different from the one mode to another and camera asks you about when changing modes.

Those 2 shots I have extracted from the m2v Liquid capture. Honestly again I thought that the Z1 was the HV20's and the other way.  

And the HV20's pic.

Thank you George.
I am going to tinker with 30F on my AH-A1. I suspect the output may work
better encoding to DVD progressivly.

Sef:

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that you visit the HV20 forum and read the threads concerning Cine Mode v other modes, and 24/25p v 50i/60i. There is a ton of information and lots of discussion, and you may gain some more insight into what Cine mode does to the colours, the gamma curves, the softness/hardness etc etc. For example you will find that when you have said "But there is an easy explanation for that: for Cinemode the camera is switched off for Auto", there is in fact more to it.

It's a really helpful forum - I visit it as often as I do this one.

I posted onve where someone said that HDV is the same as HD and that Cinealta 900 has the same image quality with the HV20.

I am not sure that there are a lot of people there who knows what they are talking about.

I will say DO not take seriously what you hear there. We have better knowledge here and many people knowing what they are talking about.
 

I think they were pointing out the fact that both HDV and HDCAM use 1440x1080 pixels and not 1920x1080 pixels like many people think.  HDCAM is usually edited as 1920x1080 because it is always captured into a NLE as uncompressed or some other high quality codec.  The only NLE on the planet that can edit the native HDCAM codec is the SONY Xpri we use at work.  The F900 camera itself can shoot 1920x1080 live from the head but once it goes on tape it is compressed at 1440x1080 3:1:1 color and at 144mbits/s.  This pretty much makes it the DV format of HD.  There is this miss information out there that most HD broadcasts are 1920x1080 but if it is a program played back from a HDCAM tape then it is 1440x1080 upsacled back to 1920x1080.  The only time HDTV is true 1920x1080 is if it is a live broadcast of a sports event.

The staement that HDV is HD is true.  It is all HD.  HDV is just a form of HD just like how a DVD is SD.  Sure DVD is more compressed then a DV tape but they are still both SD material.  If the statement that HDV isn't true HD because of the lower resolution then DVCPROHD and HDCAM are not true HD either.  The form of compression doesn't change the type of video it is it just makes it easier to handle.  A HD broadcast is compressed harder then HDV but yet it is still a HD broadcast.

I thought that I was the one who doesn't understand English well.

I didn't say that HDV is HD but HDV is the same as HD. And they meant in quality. 

Full HD has nothing to do with HDV in quality and epecially the 900 with the HV20. 

Sef, I'm sure you can make this decision yourself! But I am going to repeat my earlier statement, which George apparently disagrees with. "I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that you visit the HV20 forum and read the threads concerning Cine Mode v other modes, and 24/25p v 50i/60i."

George, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. But please do us all the courtesy of allowing us to have our own. You responded to my posting with this statement: 

sverkalo:

I posted onve where someone said that HDV is the same as HD and that Cinealta 900 has the same image quality with the HV20.

I am not sure that there are a lot of people there who knows what they are talking about.

I will say DO not take seriously what you hear there. We have better knowledge here and many people knowing what they are talking about.
 

In other words, don't listen to lasssman, he doesn't know what he is talking about, nor does anyone else except maybe the people on this forum.

IMHO this is incredibly bad mannered, shows no respect for forum etiquet, and does a great disservice to a large number of very knowledgeable people on both forums. You also didn't have to respond to my recommendation - it would have been fine if you just left it to Sef to make up his own mind. You also do not have to this rebuttal. My apologies Sef, I had to respond to George's comment, but I hope this thread can return to its original purpose.

 

sverkalo:

I thought that I was the one who doesn't understand English well.

I didn't say that HDV is HD but HDV is the same as HD. And they meant in quality. 

Full HD has nothing to do with HDV in quality and epecially the 900 with the HV20. 

I know you didn't say that.  I was saying that maybe thats what the people on the other forum were talking about and they didn't articulate what they were saying very well.

Not such intension lasssman.

Smetvid,

when someone compares HV20 with the Cinealta 900 that says it all, I guess.