I feel that this is the second time that Avid has stabbed it's users in the back.  The first being the promised patch to version 9 that never materialized.  Now we find that Smartsound is to be disabled in mid-cycle of a release and that Avid was aware that it may happen prior to the release of version 12

 I've been thinking about that too.  We were finally starting to trust them again...

 

At this point, disabling it in the next major release (not patches to the current version) would be the honorable thing to do.

Well, at least it might suck slightly less.  It won't be honorable unless it is clearly known prior to existing customer purchasing it.

So  car manufacturers sell cars with all the various additions but at the first service they take out the aircon because they have decided not to have them in their cars. Hands up who would buy their cars and be happy? Who thinks customers would swap to the opposition?

Avid will go quiet on the subject, we will all feel neglected and feel there is no point pursuing the subject, so who wins, AVID. It happened with 9.4.3 onwards.

I really hope Avid ARE taking note on this thread, there may be only a few adding to it, but like others, I have also put custom from friends and family Avids way.

How many people do you tell if you get a good deal? How many do you tell if you get a bad deal? Many more than the good deal!!

(although they allowed workarounds, but
that will end with the next update of version 12)

According to Avid, that is at Smartsounds request.

Here is a line taken out of the email answer I got from SmartSound:

------------------------------------------------------------

Added much later: Line deleted by myself.

Just heard back from Martha at Smartsound:

Hi Ian,

Thanks so much for keeping me updated. I don't know anything new about the negotiations with Pinnacle regarding Studio. As you may be aware, Pinnacle has been a valued partner of SmartSound's for more than 10 years, so I'm sure there are open lines of communication between the top guys. If I receive any updates, I'll be sure to pass them along.

Martha

 

My GBP 0.02...

I do use Smartsound (since Studio 400) - but so far only the free sample libraries that I have accumulated over the years with various video editing programs. I now have both Scorefitter volumes 1 & 2 on S11 Ultimate and Smartsound (even the sample libiaries) still produces superior-sounding results every time. So IMO Scorefitter has some way still to go...

If Smartsound support is dropped from S12 then I would be very reluctant to move up from S11U (as someone still happy with standard def PAL DV S12 Plus offers me nothing new - but I could be tempted by the extra plugins in Ultimate - but only if everything I already have and use in S11U can be carried forward and continues working in S12).

If there is a financial/licensing reason for wanting to remove Smartsound support - here's an idea that might let Avid have their cake and eat it...

(a) Starting with whatever S12 patch - turn Studio's Smartsound tool (intereface to the Quicktracks plugin) into Premium Content (so it gets a treasure-chest and plays with volume changes/bleeps as a preview until unlocked). Set the purchase price to something reasonable that won't put potential new users off (but would help offset the cost of any royalties/OEM licence etc. for use of the Quicktracks plugin).
(b) Then, for a certain well-publicised time allow users who buy or have already bought S12 - and who also own and have registered a "qualifying prior version" of Studio in which Smartsound was officially supplied/supported (so S10 or earlier)) to apply for a free activation key to unlock the new "Premium Content" version of the Smartsound tool.
(c) Before any such "grace period" for free activation of the Smartsound tool is passed, get those musicians working and bring out a good range of Scorefitter titles so new users have access to decent music whichever tool (Scorefitter or Smartsound) they use to generate it.

Regards,
Richard

Here is a line taken out of the email answer I got from SmartSound:

Pinnacle/Avid has chosen to remove our Quicktracks program from Studio 12.

And from Jon RT

At SmartSound’s request, and as a result of inability to reach a contractual arrangement satisfactory to both parties, we will be disabling in future releases of Studio current known work-arounds that enabled the use of SmartSound.

So, do we think that both of these statements can be true?

I think there is a lot more going on under the surface than we can even guess at.

culpanr:

here's an idea that might let Avid have their cake and eat it...

(a) Starting with whatever S12 patch - turn Studio's Smartsound tool (intereface to the Quicktracks plugin) into Premium Content (so it gets a treasure-chest and plays with volume changes/bleeps as a preview until unlocked). Set the purchase price to something reasonable that won't put potential new users off (but would help offset the cost of any royalties/OEM licence etc. for use of the Quicktracks plugin).
(b) Then, for a certain well-publicised time allow users who buy or have already bought S12 - and who also own and have registered a "qualifying prior version" of Studio in which Smartsound was officially supplied/supported (so S10 or earlier)) to apply for a free activation key to unlock the new "Premium Content" version of the Smartsound tool.
(c) Before any such "grace period" for free activation of the Smartsound tool is passed, get those musicians working and bring out a good range of Scorefitter titles so new users have access to decent music whichever tool (Scorefitter or Smartsound) they use to generate it.

Hi Richard,

The only problem with your suggestion: it's too sensible.  

PINNACLE please just don't remove the smartsound on the version 12 as a lot of us already purchased this version and on the manual it mentioned the smartsound. If smartsound taken off, I already have other software that I am using that will allow me to use smartsound. I will not be buying any upgrade again if I will lost the capability to use smartsound.

I have just had a reply from Gary Greenfield, CEO of AVID:

Ian,

Thanks for the note.  I wanted to do a little research on this myself before responding.    As usual in these cases, the issues are not black and white, but do appreciate your concern as well as the sentiment of yourself and other users.  We are looking at the question and I would keep an eye out on the forums for clarity on this.    Give us a few days, however.

Thanks.

Gary

As I said to Gary in my reply, this is very heartening to know that he has taken the time and trouble to reply to me personally and to look into this important issue. Thank you Gary, also Jon RT for his efforts on this.

Cheers,

Ian

I have just had a reply from Gary Greenfield, CEO of AVID:

Ian,

Thanks for the note.  I wanted to do a little research on this myself before responding.    As usual in these cases, the issues are not black and white, but do appreciate your concern as well as the sentiment of yourself and other users.  We are looking at the question and I would keep an eye out on the forums for clarity on this.    Give us a few days, however.

Thanks.

Gary

As I said to Gary in my reply, this is very heartening to know that he has taken the time and trouble to reply to me personally and to look into this important issue. Thank you Gary, also Jon RT for his efforts on this.

Cheers,

Ian

Many thanks for the info Ian & to Jon RT, for Pinning this Thread

I just counted....I have over 40 Smartsound CD's.  Smartsound is an integral part of my storytelling and I bought the CD's over the past several years since Studio 8 or 9 and to ensure I had a good mix and choice of music.  Studio has it's quirks, but I use it because of Smartsound, Heroglyph, Bravo plugins, new blue plugins and the hfx transitions.

I don't hate Scorefitter, I just don't want to be limited to it.  I use it, it's not that bad.  And if more volumes become available, at $29.99 each, I might buy them if I like them.  But it's not enough to just have the "Scorefitter" choice.

A better marketing strategy might have been to market it as a more affordable option to complement your selection of music and target those that don't wish to spend the bucks on smartsound.  Maybe we would have then been happy about Scorefitter and not so angry and disappointed.

I own Digital Juice too, but you know, I don't use it as much because...it's not as convenient.  Smartsound is probably a big reason why "many" users continue to upgrade version after version.  I think music is one of the most important aspects of our video making and taking the Smartsound advantage away, while leaving us to use nothing but Scorefitter seems controlling in my opinion.  Why not give both options and make everyone happy.

jjn:

I think there is a lot more going on under the surface than we can even guess at.

Oh you can bet that there is some high level negations going on, and both companies have dug in. I work for a Fortune 500 company and have sat though some of these things, and the bottom line is it always comes back to money. From reading all the posting from Pinnacle, and comments made by Smartsound I bet I can guess one or two areas were the battle lines have been draw-en. I don't want to post my thoughts on this here, because if I'm wrong it would only be counter productive.

If nothing else, we have provide a swift kick in the pants to both companies to find a middle ground, and hopefully they do before the release if 12.1, because if not, this will start a lot if things in motion, and the brunt of it will be on Pinnacle, for which I have seen stuff like this before, sometimes a company needs deep pockets to wade out the storm, and I'm not so sure Pinnacle pockets go that deep, but time will tell, and maybe we will never have to find out, now that would be a win win solution.

Just adding my thoughts. I have been a Smartsound user since the Pinnacle DV500 days. I've used Studio since v9. I also have Avid Liquid which supports Smartsound. I have SonicFire Pro too along with several SS CD's.

SS is used in every video I do. And I mean "every". To remove it from the timeline editing is basically telling me that they don't listen to the purchasers of their products. Scorefitter in it's present form is really not up to the standards of Smartsound. And, as someone already stated.... only 2 CD's since it's release. While you can use SFP outside the Studio environment, it's just easier to set up everything on the timeline. 

With terrible news like this, it makes me wonder if Liquid's replacement will also not support Smartsound.

That leaves me in a position to have to look elsewhere for a product that does what I want it to do.

I would not have upgraded to S12 if I knew this was going to happen. 

 

Tony P:

Just adding my thoughts. I have been a Smartsound user since the Pinnacle DV500 days. I've used Studio since v9. I also have Avid Liquid which supports Smartsound. I have SonicFire Pro too along with several SS CD's.

SS is used in every video I do. And I mean "every". To remove it from the timeline editing is basically telling me that they don't listen to the purchasers of their products. Scorefitter in it's present form is really not up to the standards of Smartsound. And, as someone already stated.... only 2 CD's since it's release. While you can use SFP outside the Studio environment, it's just easier to set up everything on the timeline. 

With terrible news like this, it makes me wonder if Liquid's replacement will also not support Smartsound.

That leaves me in a position to have to look elsewhere for a product that does what I want it to do.

I would not have upgraded to S12 if I knew this was going to happen. 

 

I support your position completly.Avid should be ashame for nonrespecting their custumers like that and as you I would not have upgraded to S12 if I knew this was going to happen.

Users would naturally migrate from SmartSound to Scorefitter if this one looked better. Reality is that there is no much added value with Scorefitter - on a user point of view - hence some users reported that they find it less 'musical'.

Disabling SmartSound is clearly a regression and even offence to those who invested on it. What would say an US Court?

jjn:

Does it mean that only 10% care of voting ?

think the choices are flawed. There is no response for "I don't have any smartsounds discs, but I am disappointed at the way owners of the disc are being treated". Just answering that you don't have any discs implies a negative vote which people might not want to cast.

 

 

Now, I have added this choice....
;-)

DV 

Thanks. Of course, I've already cast my vote....

Might be worth repeating the link to the poll as it's now a couple of pages away.

It's HERE

I join the discussion to protest again the decision to remove Smartsound.

I use Smartsound since Studio 1 and along the years I bought 10 Smartsound CD.

For me it is a shame to remove Smartsound from the next Studio versions or up-date

I am completly fed up with Pinnacle behavior regarding the basic need of their customers

Pinnacle must keep the Smartsound if Pinnacle wants to keep their customers

If Pinnacle is playing that sort of game, Pinnacle will push us slowly but surely to the competition

It is time also to highlight the regression that happens regularly  when a new version is launched, regression which are coming over completly new bugs

All that is simply rubbish, I am pissed off

 

 

 

Jerry

I think you are being a little unfair.

Actually, I think it's quite astonishing (and encouraging) that Gary replied at all. Let's not scare him off by being too rude, eh?

Any word from the CEO of Smartsounds yet? 

 

I agree, the fact that he replied at all, shows that he is listing. The fact that he stated he would look into the matter and get back, says he really does care to spend time to come up with the correct response, what ever that may be. You have to remember, he has the last say, and after researching it, he and he along has the power to change things.

You also have to remember that even though this was a pretty typical reply from a CEO, he replied in less then 24 hours, which for a CEO is really good, and he did not drop the subject, but just wanted more time to get a more detail reply together, I do not think you could have asked for anything more.

 

I have been a user since Studio 400. I was also used in one of Studio 400 advertisement campaigns. I have recently purchased Studio 12 and one of the reasons I up-graded was to be able to use the Smartsound. If Avid breaks my SS on S-12 then I will expect at least a $50.00 rebate. Furthermore, I will not upgrade again and will be searching for another editing program.

The customer rating on Amazon is already down to 2.5 stars out of 5. The decision to break studio 12 will only lower the already low rating to zilch. I will wait for Avid to make a final review on Smartsound before I rate my purchase. Long Live Smartsound....

ScoreFitter has very few songs at scrappy quality. Nor have more volumes come out. The volumes also have too few songs on them. SmartSound needs to stay! I think the contract thing is Avid does not wanna pay SS what they want.... and the market research things is total B.S. I see no facts backed it up either. This form provies it.

If it was a case of "cost", I would gladly pay an additional fee to keep smartsound.  It can't be that much though, as Roxio, Ulead and Cyberlink all have Smartsound built in and they are all in the same general price range I believe.  So a $20.00 additional fee would be no problem on my part.

I am sure PInnacle would love us all to embrace the Scorefitter music and they could add to their library of music over time.  But there isn't enough to choose from right now and the problem is they got us to buy into the Smartsound advantage since several versions ago.   Many of us have spent a small fortune over time.   And now, they want to use their own music exclusively.

For brand new users to Pinnacle, it's not a big deal.  But the long time users/supporters count on using their owned music easily within the program.

Scorefitter - great as an add-on.  I would even buy some of it if I liked it.  But I would gladly pay to keep Smartsound as well.

If it turns out that Smartsound are the ones being difficult here, because they don't like consumers having both choices, then shame on them.

Alley:

If it was a case of "cost", I would gladly pay an additional fee to keep smartsound.  It can't be that much though, as Roxio, Ulead and Cyberlink all have Smartsound built in and they are all in the same general price range I believe.  So a $20.00 additional fee would be no problem on my part.

I completely agree, and have said so before.

But it does set a dangerous precedent.  What other "included" features and might we have to pay for in the future?  Any time we buy a "plus" or "ultimate" version, what is the risk that you have to pay to keep it running when you upgrade to the next version?  For example, S11 Ultimate includes Bias SoundSoap.  S12 Ultimate does not (it comes with different value-added features that S11).  But do you now have to play to retain the feature you purchased with S11?  No, thankfully, you do not.

I understand it might be a licensing issue that Avid doesn't fully control,  And like I said:

• I would pay a modest fee for SmartSound support
  (But if that were to happen, it should happen (with warning) as of the next release (a.k.a. "v13"), not a mid-release patch.
• It will be more difficult to confidently purchase future versions for fear you will have to pay for more, and more, and more previously purchased features.

 

I am sure PInnacle would love us all to embrace the Scorefitter music and they could add to their library of music over time.  But there isn't enough to choose from right now and the problem is they got us to buy into the Smartsound advantage since several versions ago.   Many of us have spent a small fortune over time.   And now, they want to use their own music exclusively..

Yes, Scorfitter should compete openly on its own merits, and we will all be happy to pay for additional Scorefitter albums when they earn our money.

 

For brand new users to Pinnacle, it's not a big deal.  But the long time users/supporters count on using their owned music easily within the program..

It will be a big deal when all the experienced users and the reviews point out how Avid develops a reputation for abandoning key features.

We were finally starting to get over the abandonment of the publicly promised 9.5 patch that never appeared.  Now this.  There won't be as many new users if none of use recommend it to our friends, or worse, actually advise against purchasing Studio.

 

 

Scorefitter - great as an add-on.  I would even buy some of it if I liked it.  But I would gladly pay to keep Smartsound as well. .

If it turns out that Smartsound are the ones being difficult here, because they don't like consumers having both choices, then shame on them.

That is possible, but I honestly can't see a down-side for Smartsound.  As is evidence by the posts here, they have gotten lots of business from Studio customers.  Why quit what appears to be a successful business model?  I own Sonic Fire Pro, but only because I got it for free when I purchased 2 CDs of Smartsound music.

 

I hope this gets resolved favorably in the very near future.