I often hear a lot of complaints about how NLE X can do this and Liquid cannot.  Well that may be true what what exactly does it mean for NLE X or Y to be able to do that function.  Most NLE's that seem to have a lot of features do so because they are a package of tools.  Having a package of tools makes the NLE itself seem to be able to do a lot more.  No NLE is immune to this either.  Avid, Sony, Apple and Adobe all do it.

One of Liquids biggest complaints of course has been Blu-ray authoring.  Almost every other NLE out there that has Blu-ray authoring however does so with a stand alone program.  So why can't we do the same with Liquid?  We can and in fact there is a thread that talks about a perfect solution for Blu-ray and DVD authoring for Liquid.  The only major difference is that you didn't buy them together.

So lets look at what is out there currently for these NLE packages.

Adobe CS4 - the mother ship of NLE packages.  Adobe includes everything except the kitchen sink which they will be glad to sell you I'm sure.  You have Premiere, After Effects, Photoshop, Encore, Flash, Soundbooth and many others.  This group allows you to pretty much do anything you could ever imagine except for 3D animation.  The package is not cheap however coming in at $1,700.00.

Apple FCS - More or less the industry standard these days in the art world.  This is another solid package.  Ironically it does not have Blu-ray authoring but it makes up for that with one of the best DVD authoring programs in the industry and one of the most nifty and creative motion graphics programs in the world.  The new version which just came out dropped greatly in price although the price will still set you back $1,000.00.

Avid - We all know of Avid here.  Media composer can do a lot but a lot of what it does is because of extra tools that come with the package.  Blu-ray authoring and extra animation and effects all all stand alone programs.  All of this can be had for the insanely low price of $2,500.00.  If you act quickly Avid will even knock off $0.00 off the purchase price.  Avid is a very solid NLE so if you stand the price it is worth it.

Sony Vegas - The baby of the bunch.  It isn't really much of a package but it's DVD and Blu-ray authoring is a stand alone program.

 

Liquid doesn't have a package of course unless you consider Hollywood FX and Title Deko Pro as part of the package.  So what can we do to get Liquid to an even playing field of these other NLE packages?  Well we can add our own tools to the mix.  A package is only as good as the tools it has.  We actually have a certain advantage over the other packages.  Companies like Adobe and Apple force you to use a certain tool.  For example what if you really hate After Effects and prefer Combustion or have no intention of using After effects ever in your life time.  It used to be where we artists had a choice which tools we used to get a job done.  Now companies force feed us a group of tools and expect us to only ever use they tools they make.  Soundbooth is another example of a pretty horrific program that I wouldn't be caught dead using.

So we Liquid users are actually at an advantage here.  We can use only the tools we want to use and we don't have to pay for stuff we will never use or want.  I also know that many of us are on a budget and we like the lower price point of Liquid editing.  Well luckily there is a lot we can do the is very low cost or free.

 

The Liquid Production Package

Liquid - Our favorite NLE that has unmatched 2D/3D pan/rotate/scale animation with multiple tracks. Cost $499.00

Title Deko Pro - Tool designed just for creating high quality still titles.  You cannot animate the titles or do special effects but it is a very solid tool for still titles. Cost $0.00

HollywoodFX Pro - the grand daddy of effects packages.  The quality may be a tad cheesy but nothing else out there comes close to spreading the cheese. Cost $0.00

Gimp - This is our Photoshop replacement for our Production package.  This allows us to adjust and create images to use in our video projects.  Cost $0.00

Inkscape - Vector graphics tool as our replacement for Illustrator.  This allows us to create vector graphics that can be exported to use in our videos.  Cost $0.00

Blender - The ultimate open source program for our Production Package.  This acts as a much more advanced replacement for the Avid FX program bundled with Media Composer.  It has a steep learning curve but once you get to know it you can create 3D titles and any form of animation for endless creative options.  Blender allows the sort of animation no other NLE package currently has.  You can also do a decent amount of compositing inside of Blender.  Cost $0.00

Audacity - Basic high quality audio editor as our replacement for Soundbooth.  This isn't the best audio editor in the world but it has a bit more precision and tools for fine tuning your audio then what you find in Liquid.  Cost $0.00

TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4 - Our own version of Encore for our Production package.  This package allows us to create more advanced DVD's as well as interactive Blu-ray discs.  It allows direct import as fused HDV projects from Liquid.  Cost $99.00

Smetvid's codec presets - Give the option of working with an intermediate form of video coded in Liquid.  This acts sort of like Apple's Prores422 video codec.  Cost $0.00

Smetvid's yet unnamed conversion tool - Allows video to be converted to one of the Smetvid codec presets.  Can also be used to encode H264 video for Adobe flash.  Cost $0.00

 

Total package cost = $600.00

What is it still missing - an easy to use compositing and motion graphics program, more advanced audio editing tool., giant price tag, direct linkage between all the programs, web authoring tools for HTML, Flash or Silverlight.

 

Thomas, I would add Wavelab Essentials at $99, and maybe Tmpge Express 4 at $99 it will ingest AVCHD and has multi pass VBR. Bluff Titler at $40 isn't a bad extra.

I'd second Bluff Titler. I tend to use Blender, but some effects are just easier to do in Bluff Titler (like the Typewriter effect).

And there are hundreds of free VST audio plugins that will work with Liquid. Some very good ones are linked in the troubleshooting thread. You can probably find a VST plugin that will do almost any audio trick you want right from within Liquid.

Don't forget SmartSounds. It's still one of my most used Liquid 7 add-ons.

Those are all very excellent suggestions and are a perfect example why we are all at a sort of advantage here.  Users who are forced to use certain packages are less likely to use other tools because they feel they already have a tool for the job.  Sadly however they may not be using the best tool for the project or themselves.  We Liquid users have to search for the best tool for the job and we tend to use the tools that others are really missing out on.

For example I recently got into an argument with a bunch of Apple loyalists.  They were really complaining about FCP not adding Blu-ray authoring.  I asked them what the big deal was and why they couldn't just boot camp Windows XP and use one of the many PC Blu-ray authoring packages out there.  They acted like I just tortured an infant.  They said they refuse to use a PC program.  Those people are so stuck and closed minded that they will not even use anything if it isn't made by Apple.  I really feel sorry for them because there are a lot of great tools out there they are missing out on.  The funniest thing about this story is that the guy that started it said his company lost out on an estimated $40,000.00 last year because they couldn't create Blu-ray discs.  I hate to be rude but I told him straight out that was pretty stupid when they could have bought a copy of Windows and Sonic DVDIt Pro HD for less then $1,000.00.  In fact Windows and TMPGEnc would have only set them back $200.00

There is a massive amount of other low cost tools that could be added to a Liquid Production Package.  The point is that we should make our own production packages based on what we need and what works for us.  I wish people wouldn't be so afraid to turn Liquid into their own home brewed production studio.

In fact to back up what Lew said, Liquid is actually already a pretty darn decent audio editing tool.  It may not have the sub frame precision but with the right combination of VST plugins there really is a lot you can do.  To be honest using Liquid I have hardly ever had to use a 3rd party audio application except for FL Studio to create my own music tracks.  The only time I ever had a need for a more precise tool was when somebody gave me some real butchered audio that was pretty close to hopeless anyway.

One more myth dispelled:

 http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1530957/apple-provides-virus-protection-snow-leopard-upgrade

 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/29/snow_leopard_security/

Interesting that you (Smetvid) brought up the topic of Liquid's audio capabilities . . . I produced two audio-only productions just this week.

A soundtrack for national sports broadcast video piece and an "album" (63 min.) of meditative musings on CD (with all the necessary etheral accoutrement') destined to late-night TV infomercials wherever you are.

The ability to use VST audio plug-ins is invaluable . . . And many of the various freebie links found on this site offer great tools for FREE!

I realize there are better dedicated audio editor programs available, but Liquid gets the job done and puts cash in the bank.

I have MC3 loaded, and mess with it upon occasion, but when I really need to knock a project out the door - I still always fall back on Liquid. (My Bad?)

Just Sayin' . . .

 

 

 

Smetvid (I don't know you well enough to address you as Thomas)

Your initiating post is perhaps too little, too late.

I am 'but a casual user' but those who use video editing software to make a living have long departed these forums and have moved on from Liquid to other products. That is their choice and there is little to be gained by 'crying over spilt milk' over the Avid announcement of no future for Liquid. However, Liquid didn't suddenly become a bad product; it never was and still is not now. 'The powers that be' at Avid announced that there was to be no further update of Liquid - bad move! Better to keep schtum! We were lulled into the future of NextGen by both Avid/Pinnacle staff employees and Moderators. But the truism of 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' is good enough for me.

Before existing users of Liquid get whipped along by your enthusiasm for what may be a short, holding exercise until the next Avid product comes along, don't existing Liquid users DESERVE AND ARE DUE, a statement from somebody fairly-high up in Avid/Pinnacle ranks as to the future of video editing and of the Liquid users growth path.

Many years ago, I recall that I was looking for a package that had the degree of integration that Media Composer appears to have and be-moaning that Liquid did not have such integration - I was shot down in flames by the Mods. So what do I use to-day:

Liquid 7.2 - for video editing
DVDitPro HD - to write to blu-ray
PhotoImpact X3 - for graphics
Smartsound and Audacity - for audio

I don't need much more. The problem that will face Liquid users is when the world moves to Windows 7, then 8, et al - where do the new drivers come from?

I think that I have been down this road before with the earlier DC and DV Pinnacle products.

those who use video editing software to make a living have long departed these forums and have moved on from Liquid to other products.

That statement is factually untrue. Some users have moved on, many have not. I was amused to see the good old Liquid exclamation mark for a split second the other night on CNN and I always see their TDK graphics. There are still lots of professional users of Liquid both on this forums and many if not most, not on this forum.

Myself, Epshow, Dave and Smet are still using Liquid to produce income as an example. There are lots of others. The Miami Heat have several Liquid systems they use to create video for their Jumbotron and other video needs. Most professionals don't jump to another piece of software just because there is not an update every week. As long as the software/hardware serves their needs they will continue to use it.

 

LewS:

those who use video editing software to make a living have long departed these forums and have moved on from Liquid to other products.

That statement is factually untrue. Some users have moved on, many have not. I was amused to see the good old Liquid exclamation mark for a split second the other night on CNN and I always see their TDK graphics. There are still lots of professional users of Liquid both on this forums and many if not most, not on this forum.

Myself, Epshow, Dave and Smet are still using Liquid to produce income as an example. There are lots of others. The Miami Heat have several Liquid systems they use to create video for their Jumbotron and other video needs. Most professionals don't jump to another piece of software just because there is not an update every week. As long as the software/hardware serves their needs they will continue to use it.

 

Lew,

I am a Liquid user exclusively. It is a great NLE, hands down. That said, the problem here isn't so much about the loyal base, it is about critical mass of numbers of users. Economy of scale comes to mind here. That's why Sam's Club (for those outside the USA, it is a discount warehouse where things are bought in bulk and sold at cheaper prices) can sell for less than the corner grocer.

So, when Avid looks at the installed base (loyal or not) they don't see the business model making sense to put large amounts of effort into Liquid or its successor, because all they see is the economies of scale. There ARE other less tangible business processes occuring here. Hint: in the business world it is called "good will"

Anyway, this current approach is shortsighted. Of course, this is really Avid's fault, because they haven't been seeding the clouds of us loyal existing users over the years. This makes it appear they don't care very much, (even if they do) Instead, they are going for the corporate low hanging fruit, maybe to get quick and easy returns, but that is an unwise and self-destructive strategy.

And, I contend that this business model will come back and bite them. If you don't maintain your facilities, dirt builds up in the corners and will eventually cause the building to collapse from within. It does take money to do that, but if their business model doesn't take into account what they need to maintain the Liquid base, the numbers of users will slowly and steadily fall off. It is my opinion that they have overused this idea of needing to maintain product secrecy (as it relates to Nextgen). That is akin to George Bush invoking the Patriot Act to prosecute bit players in the war on terrorism. I think Avid needs to be more open and more trusting of its loyal base, and begin to start a dialogue with us. This is relatively cheap and will pay huge dividends in the long run.

The clock is ticking, Avid........

ok...

 I'm not exactly sure what any of this has to do with a thread designed to help "current" Liquid users make better videos.  I started this thread for a way for people to think outside the box and expand Liquid with a few free and cheap tools.  I started this in the hopes of showing people that a package NLE is just exactly that, a package of individual applications.  What that has to do with the last few posts about Avid dropping the ball I'm not exactly sure I get.  My aim here is to help my fellow Liquid users as much as I can.  I care about creativity and helping people produce better videos to make the world a better place.  Please move any rants about Avid to your own threads.  Maybe I should close this before things get out of hand.

IMHO...The obvious future progression of video production is a consolidation to a single function of software applications... I think it will be only a matter of time before compositing, 3D application and compositing software will be a single software application... and, this will be the norm.  This shouldn't be consider earth shattering news or an expectation since this is pretty much what has been the direction for video editing in general.

Until then, you have various softwares that can achieve many of the same outcomes... the only diffference is the degree of ease to learn (and use) these software applications.

To that end... not only is the cost of the application a consideration... but, the amount of time it takes to learn the software.  This where mixing different software applications becomes the real cost.  I can think of many applications that take simple video editing concepts and conplicates them to the n-th degree.  Liquid seems to one of the few video software that takes the simple approach to achieve very good results.  However, it also becomes limited in some of it's variations that other software packages can do with a steaper learning curve.

Here is my thoughts when I think of "learning costs" the software vs. the actual cost of the software:

Adobe does the best job of reducing learning costs and having a coherant learning process... unfortunately, the initial learning cost can be quite significant (not to mention the actual cost).

Liquid does the best job of doing the most for less - in both learning costs and actual cost.

I like Gimp, Blender and many other applications... but, in practical terms... at some point you have to say... "enough is enough" and learn a software package combination to a level that is efficient and effective to use for your needs.  In my case, I choose Liquid because...1) I know how to use it. ...2) it is very stable.  I also decided sometime ago to learn Adobe's applications because... 1) It is a reasonable editing alternative to the questionable future of Liquid (this was pre-nextgen announcement decision). ...2)  It has a strong compositing package.

Everyone has to find there preferences... and, the list note is a very good place to start.  But, in the end... the combination you choose needs to include not only the cost of the software, but the cost of learning the various combinations.  For me, I choose an Adobe Creative Suite plus Liquid combination... which could easily be a very productive and stable combination option.  There is no need to seperate the choices between what is offered between AVID, FCP and ADOBE if it works for your needs and makes you more productive.

Let this run, Thomas, at this point in the game, many longtime Liquid people are not too happy with the way Avid has handled things. We can filter out the emotions as we always have.

Nice thread Thomas.

Personally, as a wedding videographer, I don't want to pay for stuff I'm never going to want to use for my work (I am one of the many who make their living using Liquid).  So the 'tool box' approach suits me fine.

So, just a couple of other low cost tools that I like to use along with the mighty Liquid:

Gimp alternative - Photoshop Elements.  I have used and can use Gimp, but find PSE much faster to work with for what I need.  V7 has got some very effective 'instant fixes' for things like red eye removal and back ground removal.  At less than $100 it works for me, and fits my Liquid workflow fine.

Audacity Alternative -  Magix Audio Cleaning Lab.  Again I have used Audacity, but never really got it fix some of the sound issues I needed fixing, like hiss.  It is a great mp3 to wav converter though.  The Magix tool, however is well automated for fixing lots of audio problems, and with some learning, seems to be very capable.  Cost $50

A Liquid web exporting alternative - Flash Video MX Standard.  Like many others here, I find that the  flash outputs variable for getting 16:9 clips that other software will see as such.  I
have been using Flash Video MX for a few years now to create flv and swf files.  It is not only easy to control, but produces high quality footage very fast.  It is near 1:1 real-time.  Another $50

I hope someone finds these tools of interest too

 

Ulead Photo Impact x3 - Great alternative to Gimp/Photoshop as well.  I have never used it but it was recently brought to my attention for its very ease of use for video editors.  It has a lot of cool tools built in for creating lower third graphics.  This could be a great little image editing tool for Liquid users who really want to create fancier graphics for their videos but may not have the artistic know how or time to do.  $69.00

Flix standard - this is about the only way that I know of for cheap to make ON2 VP6 based FLV files.  This codec is held very tight by the company and open source tools have been trying to get it for years.  Much better quality then the older FLV codec used by Liquid.  If you already use Adobe Flash to create Flash material then you already have an encoder to do this.  If you however use a generic web player template inside of HTML pages then Flix is a great solution.  There is also Flix Pro that is a bit higher quality but costs much more.  $39.00

Smetvid:

Smetvid's yet unnamed conversion tool - Allows video to be converted to one of the Smetvid codec presets.  Can also be used to encode H264 video for Adobe flash.  Cost $0.00

I'm struggling trying to work out how/if I can edit video from my Canon 5Dmk2 in Liquid. Is this going to let me do that?

Since it was terminated by Avid I've stuck with Liquid so far because:

a) it thinks the way I think
b) I find the storyboarding tool invaluable for the way I like to make films and I don't think any other NLE has it
c) becoming an FCP user feels too much like joining a suicide cult

However although I use my Canon XH A1 for paying work I want to move on with cameras like the 5Dmk2 because it offers interchangeable lenses, full frame sensor, higher resolution, greater dynamic range, better control of depth of field. I feel that I need to learn this stuff now, so I've bought one of these cameras.

I had problems editing the files in Liquid in decent quality. The feedback that I've had on this forum so far has been negative. Basically saying that I can't edit these files with Liquid. Because they are Quicktime and H 264 and Liquid can't handle this. To make matters worse the camera only produces 30p (30p exactly, not NTSC). I'm in PAL land so I need 25p if I want to mix the footage with other cameras. Also I need to output to 25p for upload to Vimeo. All these conversions seem to result in poor quality video.

Maybe Nextgen will handle these files; maybe another camera will come onto the market that does produce files that Liquid can handle. 

In the meantime I can either sell the 5D, buy another NLE or find out a way to make Liquid work with the 5D.

Smetvid - please tell me if your conversion tool is likely to provide a solution.

I don't know if Smet's tool will allow you to do this, but one thing I think you ought to consider is that Canon is likely to come out with a PAL version of the camera (they've certainly had enough feedback from the European sites requesting this). That will take care of the 30P/25P issue. Also, a search online will turn up several work arounds for converting that users seem to feel work well.

As to whether or not Nexgen will handle these files, it's hard to know. I think it likely that it will, but that's only about a 75% confidence level. It's certainly not something I'd feel confident enough to bet on.

Many thanks Dave

There have been rumours for quite some time that Canon will introduce 25p as a software upgrade to the camera. Because they introduced an upgrade earlier this year to deal with some video features that were noticeably absent eg manual control of exposure. However there is also an argument that if it was easy to do it in software that they would have done it by now. So it may be a hardware issue that blocking this route.

Actually I really think they don't care about their European customers as the camera has been in the marketplace for the best part of a year already with only the 30p option. I mean, what were they thinking of. Half the world uses PAL.

They have recently announced a new camera, the 7D, which will offer 25p. I may sell my 5D and buy one of these. But it is not a full frame camera so I am inclined to stick with the 5D, particularly if Canon provide the rumoured 25p upgrade in softwae. The 7D sounds very good, but because it is not full frame is does not offer lowlight, wideangle options for lenses - which is a feature that I really want for the kind of filming that I plan to use the camera for.

I have looked at the forums but haven't found anyone talking about using the 5D and Liquid together. I have read blanket assertions that Cineform is the conversion software to use for PCs but I've tried it and it doesn't work with Liquid. I've been using TMPG with some success but I think that I am putting it through too many conversions and the quality is suffering.

I was hoping that someone in this forum with more technical expertise and experience might be able to suggest a way to go. However it is of course possible that I am the only person in the universe editing 5Dmk2 files in Liquid and that the issues are too specialised for more expert members of the forum to be able to offer useful advice.

What's that saying about the pathfinders being the ones with the arrows in their backs ;-)

No mention of Pinnacle Studio  here... is it or isn't it a useful tool for working with Liquid?

 I've been away from this forum for a long time.  Is Studio 12 or higher capable of burning Blu-Ray discs from content made with Liquid?  If so, is there a link for a how-to?  (I could not find much about Studio and Blu-Ray with search).

 Regards,

 -SB

Studio 12 loads files I fuse in Liquid 7.2 just fine.  Then I guess I can do anything with them Studio can do, if I want to, but I haven't yet.  Studio is on my machine to load any AVCHD files I might need to work with.  Maybe I'll put a Blue Ray burner in the computer one day.  Right now, I really don't use Studio any. All my work is done in Liquid.  Studio 12 Ultimate has some nice plug ins.

Smetvid,

Thank you for this post.  I have been using Liquid since its launch and I have been very pleased with it as an editor.  I work mostly with weddings and I have also edited some "no budget" movies for my church.  While Blue-ray authoring is not a need of mine yet (I am still using my trusty Sony VX-2000) it is great to see the list of inexpensive and freeware tools for Liquid.  I rarely visit the posts and when I do I usually just read up on what's happening and then move on.  In July while I was shooting videos at a summer camp I met a guy who taught kids how to edit with FCP.  He was quite surprised with how quickly I was able to produce videos with effects for the camp.  After speaking with him more I quickly appreciated what we have in Liquid. It is a great NLE.

 Thanks,

Dan

Great post Thomas! To the point and very useful. 'nuff said.

-TR