If you need or like the extra that is bundled with MC try to get the upgrade from liquid. You are looking at 1500 instead of the 2500. Upgrades to MC after that will be 500 tops. and think about long term. Unless Avid folds MC is never going to go anywhere so you will not have to go through what is happening right now with Liquid. Everyone keeps talking blu ray but from my understanding 3rd party apps have to be used for any NLE. so whats the big deal with that. Liquid doesn't have AVCHD and we know its not getting it but I am sure MC will be upgraded to handle it sometime in the near future. So lets review

1. $1000 off retail

2. $500 tops for any feature upgrades

3. MC is not going anywhere unless it fold so future updates to handle the changing tech is a given ( at least 90% sure)

4. PC or Mac based if you want to choose

5 Prodad compatiable

6. bundled with other apps, that you are probably paying for anyway to add to liquid

I see nothing wrong with having a lil more power then needed better then having less power.

Igor,

Wait and see may be fine for retirees, hobbiests, and the "artisan" . There are shops that do weddings, corporate stuff, and social events. These people have little time to invest learning and re-learning NLE's. They may even bring someone in part-time to do some editing work while they are out shooting.

FCP is hugely tempting for these guys, the kids learn it in school, one might assume Apple is not going to disappear. Edius has been popular and getting more so with the small guy, you can match Liquid pro, price wise with the I/O options. Adobe has the tight integration of apps. Vegas is strong with sound.

Liquid was a killer app at this market niche, but support for the new formats is lacking, the person owning it is not going to spend time training an apprentice on how it works, especially if the person is Apple aware. Time is money with small shops, conversions and workarounds waste time with uncertain results.

Avid would be wise to announce the delivery schedule, the intended market is slipping away...  

John thats why the upgrade is not a bad deal when you factor in what you are saying. Apple is making a huge come up I do agree. Thats $1000 for FCP plus apple computer. Mac pros $2400 to start or you could go the I Mac route 1600 to start. MC works on both platforms so it doesnt matter.

 No matter what you will have to learn a new NLE ,Adobe, FCP or MC. Douglas has tuts to get you started in MC from liquid. I/Os is another story. and like I said unless Avid folds MC is not going anywhere. Coudl MC be overkill maybe, but what does that matter. Many people are buying extra apps to held along in liquid right? Outside of the freeware that Thomas suggest you are going to pay about the same once you add the cost of the extra apps if you buy any NLE out there. The best bundle might be Adobe. You get alot of Apps and it would be the same as the upgrade to MC I believe

 Try and add the price of any NLE with what you might need to make a good suite. If the price is about the same, really what are you losing. Then factor in if you had to upgrade each one individual. At least with MC when you upgrade you can get the new versions of each app. Will not entirely true, BCC6 doesn't ship with MC so far.

BCC 6 ships with MC. I have asked for this repetitively.

Unless you mean Sorenson 6.

What’s Included

• Boris Continuum Complete 6 (Mac and Windows)
• Avid FX 5.8 (Mac and Windows)
• Sorenson Squeeze 5 (Mac and Windows)
• Avid DVD by Sonic 6 (Windows only)
• SmartSound Sonicfire Pro 5 (Mac and Windows)
• Media Composer 4 software (unlicensed, Mac and Windows)

 

MC does support Blu-Ray with it's Avid DVD. It even support 1080 24p dual layers.

And if you want to edit AVCHD, at this time, you need to convert it to an intermediate codec. Me, one of the solutions that I use is to convert the footage from my Panasonic camera to DVCProHD. But I hope for MC to support AVCHD eventually.

 

dew:

 Everyone keeps talking blu ray but from my understanding 3rd party apps have to be used for any NLE. so whats the big deal with that.

That's not true at all.

 CS4... Vegas... even the consumer level programs; Pinnacle Studio... Ulead... Corel...

Ok, I honestly don't look into other NLE so I accept the correction. but as Sylvain pointed out Avid does too. Sorenson, BCC 6, I knew it was one of them

dew:

Avid does too.

Well, sort of.

It should be pointed out though that Avid DVD is.... well... who knows where Avid DVD is right now. It certainly works but nobody really understands what's going on in the wonderful world of Sonic these days, and as a result  getting proper support for Avid DVD is a lot like pulling teeth from a live bull with a rusty set of pliers. DVDitPro HD at one time was a rising star, but it stalled completely and totally leaving many with a bitter taste in the mouth.

What gets lost in these discussions is the cost of a machine 'authorised' for MC.  How much would that cost on top of the software? 

TVJohn is right about the small shops - I'm one of those who earns their living in the wedding video market, and hires in students for editing from time-to-time.

Cost is a major issue for me and I do not want to learn MC.  My present machine runs Liquid fine and also Edius.  I'm good with Liquid for somewhile to come, but unless NG  meets my needs when i do want to change NLE, I won't be with AVID in the long run. 

Actually, MC runs pretty well on most PC's. The critical thing is the video card but even that has some leeway. I got it to run pretty well with an ATI card (just no OpenGL), but MC will do that in software if necessary.

I would be curious as to how many Liquid users would be interested in a low cost, no third party, version of MC as has been previously suggested here. Maybe we could press Avid to offer that if there is enough interest.

 

What gets lost in these discussions is the cost of a machine 'authorised' for MC.  How much would that cost on top of the software?

 One of the first things I found when I made the switch to digital, was in my one person editing capacity, I was spending way too much time waiting on the system.  Wasn't long before I built another, so I could work on another project while one was rendering.  Using a KMV switch for a pair of systems and another single system, I have loads of capacity at a total investment of slightly more than the price of MC software for two.  Switching to NLE gave me the ability to create a better product, but it also slowed me down doing it.

 My point is, I was in a situation where, I needed to turn out lots of work in a short amount of time, and money  was in short supply.  I had to look for the most bang for the buck, so this is the route I chose.  I did quite a lot of research, including attending all the demos I could within 100 or so miles.  I chose Liquid, I really liked the everything from the timeline approach, and from what I could see, it had all the capabilities I needed, in a reasonably priced package.

 Liquid not only met my expectations, but far surpassed. I'll admit that I'm no expert when it comes to Liquid (I learn new tricks with every project, now that I have time to create rather than just churn out product) but many days I still have three machines cranking out video at a time.  One, sometimes two, just capturing video off of my original tapes for backup, and the other one (or two) for working on current projects.  Each of these systems, with software, cost me less than the price of one MC 4 package.  I might consider going to MC someday, but then again, why,  At my age (let's just say I've been old enough for SS for awhile) I may never change, but I've never backed away from a challenge either.

 MC has its place, just not for me at this time.  BTW, I went to an Avid demo one time and was impressed with the product.

TVJohn:

Igor,

Wait and see may be fine for retirees, hobbiests, and the "artisan" . There are shops that do weddings, corporate stuff, and social events. These people have little time to invest learning and re-learning NLE's. They may even bring someone in part-time to do some editing work while they are out shooting.

John,

I was speaking from a personal point of view.  My video work is mainly personal (family, travel, hobby, etc.) and instructional videos, most shot with my HDV camera.  The odd time someone in the family gives me AVCHD stuff to edit, so as I said in my case, the extra work flow step of doing the conversion is not too onerous.

I agree that for more professional work a better system may be required, but even at that, AVCHD is not exactly a professional format yet.  It does appear to be increasing in popularity, so hopefully by the time that AVCHD and possibly other formats (such as SSD-based camera files) become more mainstream, we will have NextGen in our hands.

When I said "wait and see", I didn't mean to just sit on my hands and wait.  I meant that I will carry on with Liquid as ever and not switch to another NLE for now.

I see no reason why they couldn't offer it.  After all the student version comes packaged exactly as that.  All they have to do is price it at a commercial level.

Perhaps Avid doesn't want to do this however due to the complaints they may get for the program not being able to do certain things like DVD authoring.  Personally I don't see what the big deal is.  Avid should sell two packages.  MC on it's own and an expansion pack to add all the third party tools.  This way people can buy MC now, get used to it and when they want to flex their creative muscle add on the third party tools.

Smetvid:

I see no reason why they couldn't offer it.  After all the student version comes packaged exactly as that.  All they have to do is price it at a commercial level.

Perhaps Avid doesn't want to do this however due to the complaints they may get for the program not being able to do certain things like DVD authoring.  Personally I don't see what the big deal is.  Avid should sell two packages.  MC on it's own and an expansion pack to add all the third party tools.  This way people can buy MC now, get used to it and when they want to flex their creative muscle add on the third party tools.

This would be a great idea and, depending on the outcome of NextGen, I certainly would be tempted to go this two step route when I "outgrow" Liquid.  I hope Avid is listening (and watching these forum discussions).

Yes, they are listening and watching this forum. Let's see what happens.

Surely this is all a bit academic when Nextgen is on the way - or is it?

I run Liquid and Avid on a non certified system and have had no problems other then both run slow. All I can say it download the trial and see how it works on your machine. No harm its free

I don't know, everyone see things different. No matter what you are going to have to learn a new NLE. Maybe nextgen will be close in the look of liquid to where there may not be much of a learning curve. Those who left and got Adobe or FCP still had to learn it. In the case of FCP get a whole new sys, so you are still coming out about the same if you were to get a $2k pc for MC.  I just feel that the upgrade offer should have never ended. It was a lack of business sense to me to do that to possible customers. Those who have moved on to MC seem to enjoy the move. Even George, now that should tell you something.  Well happy editing no matter what you use is all I can say.

alan wells:

Surely this is all a bit academic when Nextgen is on the way - or is it?

Yes NexGen is on the way but it is clear the schedule has slipped.

However this is not academic. MC, especially if we can get a good deal on it again or something similar to the academic version, might be a wise move for some current Liquid users. MC is being rapidly upgraded for new camera formats and significant improvements are being made to it to improve workflow, especially with the newer file based cameras. The implementation of AMA for easy media access and the ability to mix and match video formats on the timeline are significant new features in the current version. You can be sure (although it won't apply to many Liquid users) that robust RED camera support should be incorporated soon and AVCHD will follow as AVC-1 Intra support was introduced in the latest version. There is lots of discussion on the MC boards about AVCHD. Avid will have to support it at some point.

For many Liquid users MC may be overkill but my guess is that for many Liquid users, Liquid is overkill.

 

Again the point is lost.  I'm not an 'unsupported' kinda guy.  So the cost of an approved machine for MC is a real issue. 

LewS:

I would be curious as to how many Liquid users would be interested in a low cost, no third party, version of MC as has been previously suggested here.

 

For my part it's not really price that's the problem. Not that I'm rich, but if i want it bad enough then I don't care what the cost is.

I've played with the MC trial and it's a top notch program, but just doesn't suit the need. I frankly don't see why it couldn't be made to be a little more accepting to a wider variety of formats/codecs. (Native avchd for example). If it did then I would certainly grab it in a second, but it's simply not worth it at any cost if I have to load my machine down (and my time) with a bunch of third party transcoders and such. I don't have FCP for exactly this same reason. I rely on CS4 and Vegas because I can throw just about anything directly on the time line and get away with it. That in my book GREATLY out weighs any plugins or extras that MC could ever come with.

I would be VERY interested in a base MC at the academic price.

Last year, the 3.5 demo ran without any problems on my AMD Qcore and Radeon graphics. This box is very stable, can't remember ever crashing. 

LewS:

alan wells:

Surely this is all a bit academic when Nextgen is on the way - or is it?

Yes NexGen is on the way but it is clear the schedule has slipped.

Hindsight is such a perfect science !!!  I am one of those - and I expect there are MANY of us - who missed the Liquid to MC upgrade offered ages ago for a limited time period.  Why? - because, not being "in the know", I expected NexGen to be no more than 6 months away back then [2 years ago].  Lew ... you are being "kind" to say that "the schedule has slipped" !!! 

I love Liquid ... and have promoted it every chance a discussion on competitor products comes up ... but nowadays I am being defeated by the counter arguments surrounding lack of development and all that such debates entail.

I have played with MC4 demo and am mightily impressed - but cannot justify the full price.  I have tried PM's to Avid Moderators from time to time requesting an upgrade from Liquid - but no response has been forthcoming.  If I KNEW that NexGen was due out say in the first quarter of 2010 - I would once again "hang in there" ... but I can't even get an answer on that.  So ... what's the only logical conclusion ... NexGen remains firmly on the Avid backburner [not even in beta yet]; no Liquid upgrade will be offered ... because Avid have not yet canned NexGen and don't want to kill off what's left of their potential market for this product if they ever get round to exploiting it; and no MC4 "student" equivalent version will be offered for the same reason.

The bottom line for those who missed the one-time upgrade offer ...?  Accept Liquid 7.2 as an "end of line" product and make do with add-ons to compensate for its shortcomings ... or move on to "living" products which will likely keep pace with and grow with the trends [in other words ... just what Avid wants you to do - and judging from the way they have "abandoned" any attempts to communicate about Liquid's future - they don't care much which option you take].

My option? - staying with Liquid for now - but save us from these endless "debates" about upgrades and vaporware.  When you are ready to move on DO IT.

Lew ... you are being "kind" to say that "the schedule has slipped" !!! 

Yes, I know. I am a master of understatement and I am old enough to know the value of patience.

A good point, a number people not taking the MC option, believing NG was around the corner.

kernol:

I have played with MC4 demo and am mightily impressed - but cannot justify the full price.  I have tried PM's to Avid Moderators from time to time requesting an upgrade from Liquid - but no response has been forthcoming.  If I KNEW that NexGen was due out say in the first quarter of 2010 - I would once again "hang in there" ... but I can't even get an answer on that.  So ... what's the only logical conclusion ... NexGen remains firmly on the Avid backburner [not even in beta yet]; no Liquid upgrade will be offered ... because Avid have not yet canned NexGen and don't want to kill off what's left of their potential market for this product if they ever get round to exploiting it; and no MC4 "student" equivalent version will be offered for the same reason.

I don't think Avid has ever seen the Liquid user as being on the same level or plain as the MC user in the first place.

My understanding was that there wasn't supposed to be any upgrade path at all in the beginning and certain Avid employees lobbied hard get get the time limited one that existed. Meanwhile Express Pro owners had (and still have i believe) a somewhat open-ended, automatic, and never-ending upgrade path. Does this tell you where Liquid users sit with Avid? I don't know, you be the judge.