I need to get a second camera, and I'm looking for one that's relatively small and compact and tape based and in the sub-$1000 range (or reasonably close). So far I seem to be between the HV40 and the HC9. Has anyone used both, and/or done a detailed comparison and can offer comment?

Hi Dave,

camdcorderinfo.com has done the comparisons for you in a very detailed way.  You can look up either one and they make a comparison with the other.  After all is said and done, the nod goes to the Canon for color and low light performance, but the quality of build goes to the Sony.  I guess you "Pays your money and you takes your choice.

I really don't think you would go wrong with either one of those camcorders.

Read the reviews.  I would be interested in hearing your take on the information.

Denny

Hello Dave,

fyi: I have a Sony HVR-Z1 and backup camera Sony HC9.

In normal light condition the HC9 is a superb camera..sharp images.

Pol

The HV40 is a camera with a lot of interesting options.  First of all it can shoot 24p and 30p.  This may or may not be a big deal to you but it is a nice feature to have if you ever need it.  The HV40 unlike all the previous Canon camera actually records in the Canon 24F mode that Liquid supports for native 24p editing.  This means no 3:2 pulldown funny business.  I also find the Canon cameras to be a bit more photographic in what they produce.

Now I don't want this to turn into a 24p debate, I'm just throwing it out there as an option.

The 30p mode wraps the video in a normal 60i HDV signal so that also works perfectly fine with Liquid.

 I will agree that the build quality is a little weak with the Canon cameras.  Of course if you are like me you will not plan on handling your cameras rough so it shouldn't be a huge concern.

I have been using the HV30 for over a year without any mechanical issues. 

The only additional issue that I might think of might be in color balancing.  If you are using a Sony as your primary camera and would use this as a second source, the color balance could possible become a compelling issue to choose one over the other.  I am certainly no expert on this issue and will defer to others more knowlegable in the area.

Denny

I prefer the 30F over 24F option. I've tried both, I like the reduced judder of 30F vs 24F. Also, progressive better lends itself to the web.

Denny, I did look at camcorderinfo.com, but they didn't have an HV40 review yet. I know that it's predominantly identical to the HV30, but I'm always leery of assuming that that's true in all cases; I'd like to see a head-to-head with the actual HV40.

I am concerned about color matching, as my other camera is a Sony VC2100, and I've tried color matching Sonys and Canons before (wth rather mixed results). But low-light performance is still a major concern with me, so I can't overlook the Canon. I don't need and am unlikely to use 24F, but 30P could be useful.

DStone:

I am concerned about color matching, as my other camera is a Sony VC2100, and I've tried color matching Sonys and Canons before (wth rather mixed results). But low-light performance is still a major concern with me, so I can't overlook the Canon. I don't need and am unlikely to use 24F, but 30P could be useful.

If it's anything like my old HV20 and HC3, forget it. Not only does the color not match but the audio doesn't either. The Sony color was always much more vibrant as compared to the Canon and even when dampening the color at the cam (the sony cam) you could still see a fairly large difference on the time line. In bright light shots the color correction was a pain in the butt, but in the lower light it was next to impossible with the colors coming in full shades apart Mixing audio clips from the 2 cams was always a bit of a challenge as well.

Needless to say, I won't be doing the Sony/Canon thing again. It's one or the other.

Dave

If your worried about color matching stick with Sony. Ari Dembo & I  did a test shoot with his Sony and our Canon a while back, & spent several hours trying to color correct them without any luck. It's not worth the trouble.

JFYI,

 I will most likely be ordering 2 HV40 for a shoot next month. Costco has the HV40 on there website. That means 90 day return policy, and they automatically extend the warranty for 2 years. Plus with you executive card you get 2% back.

 

Dave,

I have the HV20 and have used it quite a bit with my good ol VX2000 and they match very nice as far as color. I tend to use the HV20 for wide shots as I find I can zoom if needed very far into the shot and it looks crisper with more details in the wide shot than the VX200 does. The VX does a great job with close ups and medium shots and it works with a lanc controller which is a big plus. I have made a fake lanc for the HV20 using the remote and a digital audio cable by simply taping the end of the cable to the controller and creating a tab I insert the other end  for the camera mount which lines up with the sensor input on the camera. It works fine not a lanc but it definatly beats not having one.

I use the HV20 remote in that same fashon and it works just as well as a lanc. Just cut an old optical cable and your in business. I will most likely be rolling with 3 cameras, 1 HV20 running remotely on the flow capturing live via a hidden PC and Liquid and 2 HV40s on deck with me both with the optical homemade lancs.

 It would be nice if they actually had a flash camera that recorded in HDV format. Hopefully the nextgen will let mutliple camera editing with mixxed formats. That in my opinion the only real thing liquid is missing for me.

 

Color correction works out much easier if the cameras are all set to fixed color temp setting ahead of time. With multicam, auto settings are not your friend.

dun4cheap:

JFYI,

 I will most likely be ordering 2 HV40 for a shoot next month. Costco has the HV40 on there website. That means 90 day return policy, and they automatically extend the warranty for 2 years. Plus with you executive card you get 2% back.

 

I'm not a member of Costco (BJ's is closer), but there's one about 10 miles from here. The 90-day return policy is good to know.

Dave,

 A membership is cheap, order online. Remember not only do you get the 90 day return policy, but costco automatically extends the mfg warranty from 1 year to two.

 http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11477953&search=hv40&Mo=0&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=hv40&Ntt=hv40&No=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1&SessionID=5d289cbd-a6fd-488a-ae68-18efa1a3cb95

One of the things I didn't get to try for color matching is to try and bring the Sony closer to the Canon in the camera first place. Besides the difference in saturation levels, there's a blue/green shift between most Sony and Canon camcorders. If I can get rid of that predominantly in the camcorder, then I think it'll color match pretty well in post.

One of the strengths with the much more expensive XH-A1 is the ability to "bias" each color as a custom pre-set. I'm not sure how much customization the HV allows. Still, the sell price makes it very attractive as a secondary cam.

Dave, there is a thread on the HV20 forum that explores the difference between the HV20, 30 and 40, and you can find it here.

 

FYI,

 I just placed an order for 2 HV40 from Costco.com. I have a big shoot coming up on the 25th. I will be using the 2 hv40's and an hv20. My other hv20 had failed, fortunately I had an extended warranty and got my money back for it from circuit city before they wen belly up. However, this year I am thinking of capturing all three cameras live via pc rather than dv tape. I can control all three PC's from one location. It would be nice if there was a nice lite utility that I could use to capture with that Liquid could use the file with naitively in a multi cam hd environment but I have not found anything. So I will probably just use Liquid itself to capture.

 Dave, what did you decide to do?

 

I'm looking at the HV30 and HV40 and trying to decide if I want to spend the extra money for real 24P and the Custom button. This is more of a case of me trying to rationalize getting 24P when the fact is I don't really need it ("Can you say 'New Toy??' Sure you can!")

As much as it would be easier to color match the two Sony's, I really have to go for something that has better low-light performance, and the HV30/40 is definitely the winner for that. I'm going to rent one for a couple of days to see if I can adjust my VX2100 to match the Canon, at least enough to let me color correct in Post.

OK, I've got an HV40 on order (Crutchfield; good price, no restock fee). I've done enough online research to convince myself that I can alter the HV40 and VX2100 color profiles enough to get a reasonable match before post, and that I should be able to tweak them very close in post. I'll post the results.

I spent a long time looking at the various Canon AVCHD cameras as well, mostly because of the recording times. The HV40 gets 1-hour of HDV whereas the AVCHD cameras can get 3+ hours of HD. But the low-light tests show more artifacts (encoding issues with noise at low-light levels) with AVCHD at higher bitrates. So I don't think the AVCHD cameras are quite where they need to be. Yet. I'm sure they will be. That and the fact that I like having a tape to go back to, and that made the decision for me.

The HV40 arrived today. First impressions: Boy, is it small!! I'm so used to lugging around the VX2100 (and larger) that this thing feels puny by comparison.

I'm going to run color matching and light level tests over the next couple of days.

DStone:

The HV40 arrived today. First impressions: Boy, is it small!! I'm so used to lugging around the VX2100 (and larger) that this thing feels puny by comparison.

I'm going to run color matching and light level tests over the next couple of days.

Dave,

Also, if you could comment on the overall ergonomics of the camera after you have used it for a while.  Two years ago when I was shopping for a similar HDV camera to replace my larger and heavier D8 model, I had shortlisted the available models to the Canon HV20 and the Sony HC7, both similar in size and capability.  Playing with both in stores gave me the feeling that the HV20 was lighter and had a "cheaper" feel to it.  The "feel" of the controls and the location of the zoom control with respect to my fingers also didn't feel as good as the Sony, so for the slight price difference (about $50.00 more if I remember correctly), I chose the Sony.  At that time I had also read in a review that the Sony had better low light capability, but that may not be true anymore with the newer models.

A couple of years ago when I bought my HV20, the discussion threads all talked about how the Canon looked and for some people felt flimsier than the Sony, not as strong. In the time since then, I have never seen any reports of anyone actually breaking one (except on purpose).

The problem for me with the low weight is the diffiuclty in keeping it steady. If you always use a tripod this isn't a problem. I doesn't matter how good the stabilizers, camera shake to me is the main cause of lost footage.

But the HV20 itself - I have been very satisfied with it. I'll be interested Dave to read your reviews after you've had a chance to work with it for a while.

Actually the Canon performs better (less noise, sharper image) than the HC7 in low light, but the Sony has more color saturation. This has more to do with the color difference between the two cameras (and between the Sony and Canon's in general). The Sony saturates colors more than the Canon under the same lighting conditions. I've seen this with other Sony vs. Canon tests as well. One of the things I'm looking at is if I set the Canon to Vivid (which saturates the colors more than normal) does it more closely match the Sony?

I'm going to start the tests tomorrow. My plan is to start with a known source (color bar chart) under identical lighting conditions, white balance, and record tape from the VX2100 with the default settings. Then I'm going to do the same with the Canon, in both the default color, Vivid color, Cinemode, and Cinemode with Vivid color. I'll repeat the capture with the canon in DV, HDV, HDV30, and HDV24F (true 24 frame progressive). The framerates shouldn't have any real effect, but I'll make sure.

 Then I'm going to do a low light test by reducing the light until the Sony starts producing noticeable noise, and then recording with the Canon at the various frame rates and with Cinemode enabled and disabled. Then I'll raise the light level until the sony stops producing noise, and repeat. What I'm looking for is really a comparison of noise patterns. I already know the Canon is going to be noisier than the Sony (a single 1.27" CMOS vs. threee 1/3" CCDs). As long as the differences aren't jarring, I'm good with that.

In other words, if I can cut the two cameras together with no color post processing, that would be perfect. But that's not going to happen. I'll be happy if I can get them to match so that cuts aren't jarring even if they are obvious. Both cameras have sufficient color controls that I should be able to get something that matches reasonably well without post processing. At least, that's my hope. I'd really like to get the Canon to match the Sony's default setting. That way I can cut with existing footage without color correction. I'm not overly optimistic about that, but we'll see.